NLBFT 12 Chat Thread

[LOOT]

Okay, how about no? I always tend to edit my posts right after submitting it, usually because I forgot to add a couple of small details. Now, yes, I completely redid my entrance, but Erdawn requested me to do so since he wanted it to be a less sucks character. The point is, not everyone can get their posts correct the first time, even if they reread the thing in the Reply Box. Now, if you're talking about after your opponent posts, then yes, of course. However, this rule is very vague and thus a failure.

[Kargath]

Use Windows Notepad.

[Wyborn]

Either get it set down in the rules or I'm ignoring the living Hell out of it.

[The Willful Wanderer]

SRSLY.

Anything you're going to actually flat-out deduct points for ought to be mentioned in the rules, and thus standard to all judges and approved as a rule for the tournament. Particularly something like this, where it's quite possible for someone to make a post, and then have their opponent inform them of something that makes that post not work- so then someone's stuck going back editing or replacing the post.

I normally wouldn't comment, but this is a fairly extreme thing, given that you're talking about a fifth of the absolute maximum possible score.

[Vapor]

Is it really that significant if the change is made before the opponent makes their first post? because the actual battling has not started yet, and neither has most of the judgement. It seems relatively inconsequential in this context, compared to, say, extremely sprucing up all your posts when a battle is over.

And by the way, will those that have offended the rule before it was made a rule still be penalized? Because It'd just feel like I'm failing all over the place so far.

[Joker]

... I do not look fondly upon this. In fact I consider it a form of cheating the system.
Therefore:
From this point forth, if I see that you have edited a post in the battle topic, I will detract at minimum two points from the score I give you.

It would make more sense if this rule was created for when "TIME" has been called and all posting is finished. At which point the contestant is not allowed to go back and make any changes, while the judges review their work.

Or for those who judge while the fight progresses, simply base your scores off what you read the first time. If your not going back to look over what was written a second time once the fighting is over, then there is no need to worry about what changes have been made ( your not going to see them).

[Vapor]

^ Works for me.

[Galefore]

^^Well, I should have known somebody else pointed this out. Either way, I've also made it defined in the actual topic. He can't do that, or at least not until after Time is called.

[Metal Man]

Editing one's posts before the other person posts also counts as a point deduction? That would be a shame, especially since, even if you work them out like I used to in notepad and ruthlessly proofread them, sometimes one would like to change something or add something more.

Considering that as long as the person who posts gets a chance to see the most up-to-date post before they submit, I would not see it as some attempt to look better than they did to increase chances of winning (as is implied by docking points). That said, it isn't in the rules and I see no precedent for it, so... yeah.

Way to cause drama, Kargath.

[Kargath]

Editing after posting is dodgy.

• For the editor, it effectively removes any of our last remaining consideration of the time limit. Have a crappy post? Go ahead, post it! You can fix it up later.
• It should not be the responsibility of the responder to adapt to changing versions of the text. What if you have to save pages when you're online for only 10 minutes, like I had to when I battled last year? You spend three hours writing and polishing, write it up on the computer, get online to post and ... oh, they've just changed a stack of important events. Great!
• You can take the George Lucas approach and retcon everything to suit your current mood. Besides, isn't it a bonus if it makes it look like the other guy isn't following continuity?
• It should not be my responsibility to track every version of every post to look out for that behaviour - instead I should act like a Mafia mod and necessarily assume editing IS cheating.

However, it's Gale's tourney, so he can make any rule he likes, change scores, require everyone to post photos of themselves with chickens...

[LOOT]

Just how the bloody hell are you going to cheat if you edit your post before the tournament is over? If the post makes your opponent's post make no sense at all, then sure, but I'm fairly certain at this point in the tournament the fighters are responsible enough to leave the main context of their post alone once posted.

Also, if somebody's strapped for time, why bother entering the tournament?

[Repster]

Editing has never been allowed in most forms, I say most because simple edit in grammar and such don't detract from the actual action therefor does not affect your opponents reaction so they are mostly ignored and shrugged off.

Whatever changes to the actual content, whether minor or not, are however rather frowned upon.

In the case of Vapor, however, it is acceptable. Personally, if I would not have been beaten to it, I would have to him to myself. It was just bad form by his part, and Wyborn would have most likely have asked for the edit.

Point deductions for editing? Go for it. Let us know how much, then we shall ignore it, and tack that much on the final score.

[Galefore]

I'd prefer you not to mock me either, Karg. This isn't my tournament, I'm merely following the rules posted years ago in the first and passed down through SML and Myself to this one. I'd appreciate it if the judges didn't try to formulate their own rule system, and that's pretty much what you were doing. I appreciate your concerns and some of them are well-founded, but there's rarely been a mass content edit in the history of this tournament. If anything else like what Vapor did occurs, bring it up for the host and your fellow judges to deliberate upon, don't take it upon yourself to be our savior in our desperate editing crisis.

Now, case closed. Any more bitching I need to quell?

[Joker]

[Kargath]

Just how the bloody hell are you going to cheat if you edit your post before the tournament is over? If the post makes your opponent's post make no sense at all, then sure, but I'm fairly certain at this point in the tournament the fighters are responsible enough to leave the main context of their post alone once posted.

Also, if somebody's strapped for time, why bother entering the tournament?

Just because you believe the rule won't be broken doesn't mean it shouldn't be there.

My point is that editing can be used as offensive weapon to push the other person past the time limit, or make them spend their entire time that they have been able to allocate to the Gunjin to continually adaptively re-writing their post. Even someone with a reasonable amount of leeway for time could be forced to the wall by that strategy.

In the case of Vapor, however, it is acceptable. Personally, if I would not have been beaten to it, I would have to him to myself. It was just bad form by his part, and Wyborn would have most likely have asked for the edit.

I am having difficulty understanding your sentences here. Mind clarifying first?

I'd prefer you not to mock me either, Karg. This isn't my tournament, I'm merely following the rules posted years ago in the first and passed down through SML and Myself to this one. I'd appreciate it if the judges didn't try to formulate their own rule system, and that's pretty much what you were doing. I appreciate your concerns and some of them are well-founded, but there's rarely been a mass content edit in the history of this tournament. If anything else like what Vapor did occurs, bring it up for the host and your fellow judges to deliberate upon, don't take it upon yourself to be our savior in our desperate editing crisis.

Now, case closed. Any more bitching I need to quell?

I'm not mocking you.
It is your tournament now, just like it used to be SML's, and the others before him. You can (and have) changed rules over time.
Again, my point is that a battler should really have their post up to the final standard they want before posting. Though we haven't been enforcing it, the time limit should be a limit, not just a point which you have to put a stub post in the topic by.
A sharp penalty for editing helps enforce this and makes for a better tourney. No retcons. No 'tweaks' of writing technique or story content. No ability to attempt to block out the opponent from posting a coherent battle post.
Everyone here would have access to Windows Notepad. Even if you don't, there's free online services like Yahoo! Notes (which I gave Selene the link to last year), Google Docs, and others. It's easy enough to do, and there's no real reason not to.

-------------------------------------
DOUBLE:

Also, two important things:
1) Why is the signup topic stickied and the Chat and Battle threads not?
2) In regards to my "you both lose" comment, I wanted to make it absolutely clear to Tazy and Inferno that I did not consider either one to have triumphed over the other, and that one just happened to land better after tripping over himself. It was a reminder for the eventual 'victor' to not celebrate passing the line but to use their poor performance as an impetus to get better in time for the next round.

[Repster]

I am having difficulty understanding your sentences here. Mind clarifying first?

Exactly.

Also, I've just been to lazy to sticky and unstickify.

[Galefore]

I've closed this case. Stop arguing. There will be no tweaks in your judgment criteria. Feel free to deduct. We, as Rep said, will merely add what you deducted to the final score.

[Vapor]

I've got another bye. I really hope I don't end up winning the entire tournament in this way.

[Wyborn]

I'm really sorry, Vapor. If you want, in a few weeks we can just butt heads outside of the tournament context.

[Metal Man]

I could always fight Vapor instead. Of course, it might be unfair to just plug me in this round or somethin', but... yeah.

Just an idea.