NLBFT 11 Chat Thread
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Galefore
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We now return you to your regularly scheduled Kargath
Firstly, a note: some quoted sections are missing, just because I had already dealt with them previously in the post in replies to other quoted sections.
Now, with that:
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Firstly, watch the personal remarks, they reflect poorly on you in general and amount to little more than an eyesore.
[/QUOTE]
My remarks were appropriate and necessary, but I observe that they are producing too much noise in your signal. Therefore, I will minimise them from now on.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Secondly: it doesn't matter. The degree of these things is completely irrelevant because the problem with having a God character extends much deeper than just what's done with them: it has to do with a narrative tone, an infringement of the rules, and the general fairness with which two battlers treat each other. This will be treated much more specifically at the bottom of my post, so hold off on what attacking tirade you have until then.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Irrelevant. Knowing that Erdawn would act again you still presented the most likely scenarios as being equivalent to him never acting again at all, which is tantamount to saying that what he does doesn't matter.
[/QUOTE]
No, really? I never said that Erdawn would never act, in fact I just said that he would. I simply stated the most likely scenarios from the given situation. If Lucille died from blood loss, how exactly would that prevent Richter from having dealt even more ferocious damage? If Richter was defeated and restored, how would that have prevented him from going down fighting? Come on.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Even assuming that more complex changes take more time to make (which is something that's never indicated in the fight, in the introduction, or in the tone of your narrative, so I find it particularly doubtful, but more on that at the bottom), there's no indication that it takes Lucille any effort at all to do anything; that is to say, no more effort than it takes to speak, which isn't very much at all.
[/QUOTE]
It wasn't in the narrative, since she never actually got to making a more complex change. It takes will and a method of application for Lucille to make a change. Remember the quill? That was originally prepared for what I thought was the surety that Erdawn would have Richter disable Lucy's speech through injury. She would have had to fall back on writing with the quill in her own blood, which would have been much less effective, and of course Richter after seeing that this too was another instrument would have snapped the quill (or more likely Lucille's fingers).
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
She's not. Every post you make illustrates that she isn't bothering to stick around him at all - that at any given moment Richter is on the edge of ceasing to exist, and that this is of course inevitable and his best bet would be to just lie back and take it. Again, not acceptable.
[/QUOTE]
Again you either miss or ignore what I say. If Lucille could change anything with infinite speed and infinite power, why is she even bothering with minutes, even seconds of contact with him once she has read him?
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Irrelevant. My character not knowing that killing yours will kill him doesn't change the fact that you've built a "safeguard" into your character that means that, in order to keep consistent with the universe you established, your character can't be killed without the consequences for everybody else being much worse. That's inherently cheap, whether Richter or Wyborn or Reiko or Aidan or any character thinks so, and if you don't see anything cheap in it then you need to sit back and possibly reconsider what the word means.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
"That's cheap and I'm going to ignore it."
Ironically enough? Erdawn said and acted on the exact same thing.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Character knowledge is irrelevant. This is not a contest to see who has the inherently better-built character, it is at its worst a contest between the two writers to see who can operate within the bounds of the rules and triumph over the other person. That's the BF at its most primitive and boorish, but it's also good for reflecting on what it is that makes Lucille cheap. More on that, again, at the bottom of the post.
It's not about how characters will react to Lucille, Kargath: it's about how we, the other authors, do.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Allow me to answer that with another quote from you, not in the quote format so it can be visually seperate. This is what set me off in the first place, mind you, so it's fairly relevant.
"If Richter knew the consequences of killing Lucille (ie his permanent death and the fracturing of his entire story and the probable fracturing of all other stories in the Book due to lack of maitenance), would he still do it, I wonder?"
Italics and bold for emphsis: mine.
Doesn't matter if Richter knows. The only way to get around that is to pretend you never said it, and it's ridiculous that you created a scenario so slanted in favor of yourself that Erdawn had to ignore that part of it (and I know he did because I know he saw that particular line of your post) altogether.
If we have to pretend part of the scenario you created doesn't exist, as in we can't incorporate it into our own narrative, it doesn't belong. You can't place yourself in a state of godhood.
[/QUOTE]
So here we come to one of the major breaks in perspective between us. I came into the NLBFT treating it as a writing tournament, a competition between writers. A test of literary skill, of descriptive ability and narrative talent in writing a story centred around a battle.
Under what I assumed the criteria to be, I thought that a character could still lose in the narrative and their creator still win the round. That the author's skill would be what matters, that their skill in creating and maintaining believable character interactions would be essential (and from that the ability to envision what the characters knew as apart from their author knowledge would be of paramount importance). That their ability to provide soft lyricism or staccato emphasis, in appropriate and well-written places, would ensure their victory.
From that, it wouldn't matter whether Erdawn/Richter decided to kill Lucille or not. Erdawn would simply need to write whatever he chose with logic, believablity and consistency with both his and my posts. Indeed my preferred first option when I was composing my last battle post was to actually have Lucille die and show the annihilation of the story and Richter, but that would have been a true ending and would have left Erdawn with nothing to do for his post.
Your approach to the NLBFT, as you describe it in the third quote, is just seeing who can say they beat the other person the most. That's pathetic. It's two boys hiding at opposite ends of a couch, pointing their fingers at each other and saying "BANG, I got you!". "Nuh-uh, I got you!" "Well I just got you with a bigger gun!" "BANG BANG! Well I just got you twice!"
So of course, under your couch-boys system, any character who is written as being deeply involved with an area/planet/universe, who is powered by an unstable source, or anything similar, to win you must simply say that part of their character does not exist. The most effective way of winning under your system is to simply ignore your opponent's characteristics and write them as a weakling as much as possible in all of your posts. Under your system, this approach is the optimal strategy for both parties.
So, in your terms and system, to follow an optimal strategy Erdawn was 'forced' to ignore ALL of the universe I had set up, to not even bother to provide even a sentence-long explanation for why things had changed and simply beat me.
From a literary, skill-based system perspective, that kind of move would be absolute SH*T.
I know which one I prefer.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Neverminding the fact that there's never any reason to believe that the somatic components of the universe-bending are actually integral to the process of retroactively rewriting history.
Wait, can't "never mind" that.
[/QUOTE]
No, you can't "never mind" that. When the universe is a story, and the story forms the whole universe, words are essential for change.
Now, before I tackle your outrage over the 'retroactive' aspect of her powers, let me explain my philosophy of time. For me, time is more a construct than a thing, and the past and future do not really exist, and the only thing that exists in that sense is the state machine of the universe this moment. Every infintesimal moment creates its successor through deterministic rules and destroys itself in the same process, leaving nothing to 'time travel' to. Following that, for Lucille time is a mere measure of the length of a passage in the Book, 'now' the infinite set of passages that Reality is currently reading simultaneously, and 'past' and 'future' what comes before and after respectively.
When Lucille creates something, it is instantanoeus upon completion of the Word or Words, and is done in such a way that the object is created so that its motion is as if it were in the middle of the action Lucille intends. Given the nature of reality and the way Lucille places the objects, what evidence do you have when she creates an object that it was not there and doing what it was doing a minute ago, other than your memory? (Notice how I never mentioned Richter's or Lucy's memories being altered?) From there it is quite reasonable to say that it has always been that way.
As for the matter of 'complexity', it can roughly translate into "how much is moving parts?". Hence why a book or a rock is easier, a static field holding her blood is achievable, and adjusting the generalised motion vector of her limbs is relatively easy. Things like internal organs with thousands of syncronised cilia, millions of cells with mitochondria all in unison, and blood and fluids flowing every which way - not so easy. Adjusting multitudes of minature air currents to return them to their natural state? Freakishly hard.
This nature of time and Lucille's powers was in my head from the very first post.
Now can you see why I asked that last question?
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
That excuse is laughable. You not only changed Lucille's nervous system so subtly that she no longer felt pain while retaining complete control of her motor functions, you did so retroactively throughout the course of three billion years, across gulfs of time so vast the human imagination boggles at trying to imagine them on a reasonable scale.
If you want to tell me that fixing your guts is more complicated than that - even if "had never felt pain" was referring to only twenty seconds, it's still retroactively rewriting history - then I'm going to have to ask you to explain to me how this could possibly be so.
[/QUOTE]
It's a simple matter of placing chemicals in her brain in the the spaces around neurons that block the pain transmission (and there are plenty of those in existence). No moving parts either - just even placing them there uniformly static would be simple enough, and then Lucille can trust chemistry to move them to the appropriate receptor spots.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
I wonder where you get this idea.
[/QUOTE]
From your posts asserting and asking for things where the answer is literally in front of you before you post.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Vanilla magic? What in the Hell are you talking about?
Like ripping out the leylines of reality and using them to bind a ready-to-be-born universe, keeping a Big Bang from occuring in the midst of said eruption?
Like disintegrating the outline of an opponent's life aura using the nature of their own attack combined with an already-displayed, level-playing-field aspect of your own?
I mean, what does vanilla magic even mean?
[/QUOTE]
Your previous posts made it sound like you disapproved of reality modification entirely. At least you attempted to address that later on in your post ...
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
I'm actually unsure about how to take that - should I laugh? Obviously not, but I can't take this seriously.
[/QUOTE]
You could start by actually reading what's there and processing it.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Again, irrelevant: character intent has nothing to do with it.
[/QUOTE]
It's nothing to do with character intent, but the fact that Lucille would be smacked up something shocking if she tried to attempt a huge long complex change.
Firstly, a note: some quoted sections are missing, just because I had already dealt with them previously in the post in replies to other quoted sections.
Now, with that:
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Firstly, watch the personal remarks, they reflect poorly on you in general and amount to little more than an eyesore.
[/QUOTE]
My remarks were appropriate and necessary, but I observe that they are producing too much noise in your signal. Therefore, I will minimise them from now on.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Secondly: it doesn't matter. The degree of these things is completely irrelevant because the problem with having a God character extends much deeper than just what's done with them: it has to do with a narrative tone, an infringement of the rules, and the general fairness with which two battlers treat each other. This will be treated much more specifically at the bottom of my post, so hold off on what attacking tirade you have until then.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Irrelevant. Knowing that Erdawn would act again you still presented the most likely scenarios as being equivalent to him never acting again at all, which is tantamount to saying that what he does doesn't matter.
[/QUOTE]
No, really? I never said that Erdawn would never act, in fact I just said that he would. I simply stated the most likely scenarios from the given situation. If Lucille died from blood loss, how exactly would that prevent Richter from having dealt even more ferocious damage? If Richter was defeated and restored, how would that have prevented him from going down fighting? Come on.[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Even assuming that more complex changes take more time to make (which is something that's never indicated in the fight, in the introduction, or in the tone of your narrative, so I find it particularly doubtful, but more on that at the bottom), there's no indication that it takes Lucille any effort at all to do anything; that is to say, no more effort than it takes to speak, which isn't very much at all.
[/QUOTE]
It wasn't in the narrative, since she never actually got to making a more complex change. It takes will and a method of application for Lucille to make a change. Remember the quill? That was originally prepared for what I thought was the surety that Erdawn would have Richter disable Lucy's speech through injury. She would have had to fall back on writing with the quill in her own blood, which would have been much less effective, and of course Richter after seeing that this too was another instrument would have snapped the quill (or more likely Lucille's fingers).
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
She's not. Every post you make illustrates that she isn't bothering to stick around him at all - that at any given moment Richter is on the edge of ceasing to exist, and that this is of course inevitable and his best bet would be to just lie back and take it. Again, not acceptable.
[/QUOTE]
Again you either miss or ignore what I say. If Lucille could change anything with infinite speed and infinite power, why is she even bothering with minutes, even seconds of contact with him once she has read him?
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Irrelevant. My character not knowing that killing yours will kill him doesn't change the fact that you've built a "safeguard" into your character that means that, in order to keep consistent with the universe you established, your character can't be killed without the consequences for everybody else being much worse. That's inherently cheap, whether Richter or Wyborn or Reiko or Aidan or any character thinks so, and if you don't see anything cheap in it then you need to sit back and possibly reconsider what the word means.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
"That's cheap and I'm going to ignore it."
Ironically enough? Erdawn said and acted on the exact same thing.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Character knowledge is irrelevant. This is not a contest to see who has the inherently better-built character, it is at its worst a contest between the two writers to see who can operate within the bounds of the rules and triumph over the other person. That's the BF at its most primitive and boorish, but it's also good for reflecting on what it is that makes Lucille cheap. More on that, again, at the bottom of the post.
It's not about how characters will react to Lucille, Kargath: it's about how we, the other authors, do.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Allow me to answer that with another quote from you, not in the quote format so it can be visually seperate. This is what set me off in the first place, mind you, so it's fairly relevant.
"If Richter knew the consequences of killing Lucille (ie his permanent death and the fracturing of his entire story and the probable fracturing of all other stories in the Book due to lack of maitenance), would he still do it, I wonder?"
Italics and bold for emphsis: mine.
Doesn't matter if Richter knows. The only way to get around that is to pretend you never said it, and it's ridiculous that you created a scenario so slanted in favor of yourself that Erdawn had to ignore that part of it (and I know he did because I know he saw that particular line of your post) altogether.
If we have to pretend part of the scenario you created doesn't exist, as in we can't incorporate it into our own narrative, it doesn't belong. You can't place yourself in a state of godhood.
[/QUOTE]
So here we come to one of the major breaks in perspective between us. I came into the NLBFT treating it as a writing tournament, a competition between writers. A test of literary skill, of descriptive ability and narrative talent in writing a story centred around a battle.
Under what I assumed the criteria to be, I thought that a character could still lose in the narrative and their creator still win the round. That the author's skill would be what matters, that their skill in creating and maintaining believable character interactions would be essential (and from that the ability to envision what the characters knew as apart from their author knowledge would be of paramount importance). That their ability to provide soft lyricism or staccato emphasis, in appropriate and well-written places, would ensure their victory.
From that, it wouldn't matter whether Erdawn/Richter decided to kill Lucille or not. Erdawn would simply need to write whatever he chose with logic, believablity and consistency with both his and my posts. Indeed my preferred first option when I was composing my last battle post was to actually have Lucille die and show the annihilation of the story and Richter, but that would have been a true ending and would have left Erdawn with nothing to do for his post.
Your approach to the NLBFT, as you describe it in the third quote, is just seeing who can say they beat the other person the most. That's pathetic. It's two boys hiding at opposite ends of a couch, pointing their fingers at each other and saying "BANG, I got you!". "Nuh-uh, I got you!" "Well I just got you with a bigger gun!" "BANG BANG! Well I just got you twice!"
So of course, under your couch-boys system, any character who is written as being deeply involved with an area/planet/universe, who is powered by an unstable source, or anything similar, to win you must simply say that part of their character does not exist. The most effective way of winning under your system is to simply ignore your opponent's characteristics and write them as a weakling as much as possible in all of your posts. Under your system, this approach is the optimal strategy for both parties.
So, in your terms and system, to follow an optimal strategy Erdawn was 'forced' to ignore ALL of the universe I had set up, to not even bother to provide even a sentence-long explanation for why things had changed and simply beat me.
From a literary, skill-based system perspective, that kind of move would be absolute SH*T.
I know which one I prefer.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Neverminding the fact that there's never any reason to believe that the somatic components of the universe-bending are actually integral to the process of retroactively rewriting history.
Wait, can't "never mind" that.
[/QUOTE]
No, you can't "never mind" that. When the universe is a story, and the story forms the whole universe, words are essential for change.
Now, before I tackle your outrage over the 'retroactive' aspect of her powers, let me explain my philosophy of time. For me, time is more a construct than a thing, and the past and future do not really exist, and the only thing that exists in that sense is the state machine of the universe this moment. Every infintesimal moment creates its successor through deterministic rules and destroys itself in the same process, leaving nothing to 'time travel' to. Following that, for Lucille time is a mere measure of the length of a passage in the Book, 'now' the infinite set of passages that Reality is currently reading simultaneously, and 'past' and 'future' what comes before and after respectively.
When Lucille creates something, it is instantanoeus upon completion of the Word or Words, and is done in such a way that the object is created so that its motion is as if it were in the middle of the action Lucille intends. Given the nature of reality and the way Lucille places the objects, what evidence do you have when she creates an object that it was not there and doing what it was doing a minute ago, other than your memory? (Notice how I never mentioned Richter's or Lucy's memories being altered?) From there it is quite reasonable to say that it has always been that way.
As for the matter of 'complexity', it can roughly translate into "how much is moving parts?". Hence why a book or a rock is easier, a static field holding her blood is achievable, and adjusting the generalised motion vector of her limbs is relatively easy. Things like internal organs with thousands of syncronised cilia, millions of cells with mitochondria all in unison, and blood and fluids flowing every which way - not so easy. Adjusting multitudes of minature air currents to return them to their natural state? Freakishly hard.
This nature of time and Lucille's powers was in my head from the very first post.
Now can you see why I asked that last question?
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
That excuse is laughable. You not only changed Lucille's nervous system so subtly that she no longer felt pain while retaining complete control of her motor functions, you did so retroactively throughout the course of three billion years, across gulfs of time so vast the human imagination boggles at trying to imagine them on a reasonable scale.
If you want to tell me that fixing your guts is more complicated than that - even if "had never felt pain" was referring to only twenty seconds, it's still retroactively rewriting history - then I'm going to have to ask you to explain to me how this could possibly be so.
[/QUOTE]
It's a simple matter of placing chemicals in her brain in the the spaces around neurons that block the pain transmission (and there are plenty of those in existence). No moving parts either - just even placing them there uniformly static would be simple enough, and then Lucille can trust chemistry to move them to the appropriate receptor spots.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
I wonder where you get this idea.
[/QUOTE]
From your posts asserting and asking for things where the answer is literally in front of you before you post.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Vanilla magic? What in the Hell are you talking about?
Like ripping out the leylines of reality and using them to bind a ready-to-be-born universe, keeping a Big Bang from occuring in the midst of said eruption?
Like disintegrating the outline of an opponent's life aura using the nature of their own attack combined with an already-displayed, level-playing-field aspect of your own?
I mean, what does vanilla magic even mean?
[/QUOTE]
Your previous posts made it sound like you disapproved of reality modification entirely. At least you attempted to address that later on in your post ...
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
I'm actually unsure about how to take that - should I laugh? Obviously not, but I can't take this seriously.
[/QUOTE]
You could start by actually reading what's there and processing it.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Again, irrelevant: character intent has nothing to do with it.
[/QUOTE]
It's nothing to do with character intent, but the fact that Lucille would be smacked up something shocking if she tried to attempt a huge long complex change.
Why is it drug addicts and computer afficionados are both called users?
-Clifford Stoll
-Clifford Stoll
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Actually that doesn't explain it to me any better either: either you refuse to accept the obvious reality of your character (can retroactively change the fabric of the universe), or this is true in addition to you not thinking through the implications of her abilities to any degree. In any case that's not a matter of me needing to "smarten up", it's a matter of you needing to create a character who isn't God.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Improperly phrased. Reality-altering powers up to a certain degree are obviously acceptable: my character Luther also changes the fabric of reality, through his dreams and through his waking will, but the changes he makes aren't retroactive, it's beyond his abilities to affect the existence of other characters who already exist, and the magnitude of the changes he can create are relatively limited.
None of those factors are true of Lucille, who can essentially do anything she wants; given that, your question is moot.
[/QUOTE]
I've already repeatedly stated the limitations of Lucille's powers, but I'm glad for the information on your stance on reality powers anyway.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Irrelevant, and almost hilariously beside the point: there's no such thing as an ideal Gunjin character, there are just good ideas and bad ideas.
Lucille is a collection of bad ideas.
[/QUOTE]
Really? Not even a set of criteria for one?
I literally snorted in contempt for you in response to that last statement. Really, come on.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Ah! That's actually a fair deal more legitimate, insofar as questions go, so I will try to answer it.
The ideal Battlefield battle, for me, is not characterized by the amount of violence or the power of the characters involved or dramatic dialogue between them or philosophical exchanges or anything like that.
The ideal battle, the contests that we regularly participate in, is not a contest: it is a joint venture between two people to write out something extremely interesting, not for the sake of victory but for the sake of writing something extremely interesting. They would play off of each other's strengths, writing for both characters as best they can, working within a scenario that they set up together and creating something that is a product of their own interest, something that everybody can enjoy simply because it makes good reading.
See, Kargath, there's actually a place within my "ideal battle" for Lucille...
[/QUOTE]
That's something interesting. Your challenge has now been upgraded from snowflake's to snowball's chance of happening.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
But tournaments are never places where my ideal battles take place because they are by nature competitive. This means that, while there is a place for imbalance of power between characters in my ideal battle (assuming that this is agreed upon by the authors beforehand), there is not necessarily a place for anything like that in a tournament, which means that there is not any place for Lucille. She doesn't fit. The concept doesn't fit, the narrative behind her doesn't fit, the setup to be integral to the existence of all universes doens't fit, none of it fits because in a situation like this one she's cheap to the point that the narrative you set up has to be ignored for the sake of the battle.
See what I mean there? Introducing Lucille into any situation where two authors compete means that you induce a circumstance in direct contrast to my ideal battle: where one author almost literally has to ignore the other, as Erdawn was forced to do with you.
[/QUOTE]
Tackled above already. Lucille is not 'cheap', and Erdawn was only 'forced' to ignore the entire continuity of the battle if he was operating under your system.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
What needs to be understood here, Kargath, is that you've gone against the literal spirit of the Battlefield in several respects.
Firstly, you show a lack of respect for the other authors here. That's not referring to your personal jabs at me - though it certainly could be - it's referring to the fact that the scenarios you create put you in a position where their creative input doesn't mean anything unless they begin to ignore you. That's very nearly the battlefield equivalent of trolling.
[/QUOTE]
That's both low AND untrue. Let's go through my battles in order, shall we?
Fight 1 - Inferno vs Unnamed (The Doll)
Let's see, in this fight we have Inferno's attacks not affecting the battle ... pretty much nowhere. Hell, by the end of the fight The Doll was a ****ing torso on a crystal shelf. The Doll did have an invincible torso, but it's pretty damn hard to hit anything with that. The setup for the battle was also very open - I mean, I had two seperate ideas that I was going to let Inferno randomly pick from, and the one that he chose was in itself a very open setup. I mean, I described the cave system, I mentioned the rumors of power etc in the crystal cave, but it was completely up to Inferno what he chose to do with that. Even when I struck my hardest blow, I left an opening for what would happen next.
Fight 2 - The AI Arena
This fight turned out nothing like I expected, actually. I created a scenario with an all-powerful overlord jacked up on caffiene, created my character that I would be using, then told Asnabel in the chat thread that he was free and intended to use Lucas himself. Lucas was designed to give us both more creative freedom in the fight - but then Asna introduced Hot Pocket Man and it turned into a standard adversarial fight. :/
Fight 3 - Richter vs Lucille
Again, I create a very wide scope opening. I specify that something was very bad with the story, but I deliberately left it unspecified as to what it was, leaving Erdawn free to specify what it would be and how it would affect things. Then he didn't specify it at all, and I was forced to make up something (taking the wrong road) in order to keep the story consistent. As for the reality modification - if Erdawn hadn't been called away to shoot cardboard targets and the fight had gone longer, you would most definitely have seen its limits.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Secondly, you create a character who can quite literally do anything - up to and including changing the past so that things were always in the state of change that she brings about. This is problematic because, again, it makes the battle completely uninteresting from a narrative standpoint unless you're ignored, and it's even less fun to watch for anybody else. More than that, it breaks the rules, specifically battle-specific rule number 4, which reads "Assume that you and your enemy are more or less even." With Lucille that assumption is impossible, so, you know, that's cheap. I can say that reflexively and not feel a twinge of hesitation. Actually, it also breaks general rule number 3, which reads "Don't act uber-powerful compared to everyone around you." So, you know, that's two rules broken right there, and the fact that this has to be brought up when you're fighting Richter compounds the sheer ridiculousness of it all.
[/QUOTE]
Already addressed above, so I hardly think that any rules have been broken.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Thirdly, your narrative inserts your character into a pivotal role in the narratives of other characters. That's in extremely bad taste, to the point that I thought it too obvious to actually put in the rules when I wrote them down: you don't insert yourself into the past of anyone else's character, regardless of how you do it, but especially if this puts you in a position of power against them. That goes beyond just being poor form. It's something that has ot be ignored in order for the battle to proceed properly.
[/QUOTE]
No, seriously? Come on, Wyborn.
Every battle in the Gunjin involves insertion.
In every battle, a character and a location is established, and another character is inserted into the story by the other author.
There is no escaping this fact, save in the situation where the initiator creates MULTIPLE characters and hands off control of one or more to the other 'player'.
As for MY battle, it was Erdawn's choice to bring in the character with the gigantic established backstory. I left it open for ANYTHING, and he chose Richter.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Fourthly, your character can't be killed because of consequences coming about as a result of killing said character. Yes, yes, some characters would try to kill her regardless, but this isn't about Richter being a looney tune, it's about we other authors trying to wrestle with the idea of your narrative, which might as well just read "neener neener neener, you can't kill me because it will totally kill you too, for ever, neener neener neener." That's not meant to sound derogatory, it's literally the way that you set up the situation: Lucille can't be killed unless we happen to ignore the repercussions that come around as a result of her death, or as a result of her not being able to take care of the vaunted "Book".
[/QUOTE]
Under a literary, skill based system it is quite possible to deal with the concept as presented - in fact a good author would leap at it and embrace it. The opportunities are there for extreme character development - if you kill Lucille without knowing the consequences, it would provide a great opportunity to show the character's personality in the face of the end of their world. You could have people like Richter and Terror, who would love the opportunity. You could even show a submissive character, one who chooses to allow themselves to be adjusted. All these possiblities and more - and in a skill based system, any of them could still win you the match.
Under YOUR system, it's certainly not as easy to deal with.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Do you notice a thread in all of these things I'm bringing up? In order to get past them, those aspects of your character have to be outright ignored, reducing her to a self-important librarian who says words.
And that's exactly what happened.
Did you notice, there? In order to preserve his own narrative integrity, Erdawn ignored Lucille's reality-changing powers having any dominance over Richter, ignored how you made the Book so important to the existence of Richter, ignored the general cosmology you set up, ignored the impenetrable barrier around the book, and ignored the established power level of Lucille. Don't think he did? Hell, ask him! He'll tell you that he had to ignore all of that for the sake of writing something reasonable, and I'll bet you ten to one he'll laugh while he says it.
[/QUOTE]
I did see that, and was to put it lightly, disgusted by it. The fact that he did it without even providing a reason in the story makes it all the worse.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Lucille's cheapness is more than just a sum of her abilities and the improprieties of creating a character like that in this context:
When somebody like Erdawn, hands down one of the most creative people I've ever met, decides that he can't work around the situation you've created and is therefore forced to simply ignore parts of it and assert his own version of reality, it means that you did something terribly, terribly wrong.
You stepped out of line with your character.
You stepped out of line with your scenario.
[/QUOTE]
I created a scenario and character which was good, which was well-written and provided plenty of room to manoeuvre. Nothing 'out of line' there - unless I'm 'supposed' to be creating an inferior character to Erdawn?
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
You addressed me in an unreasonable tone with no provocation.
[/QUOTE]
I speak the same way to everyone who ignores the evidence in front of them repeatedly. Illogicism is provocation enough.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
You refuse to see what you did wrong during all of this.
[/QUOTE]
When there's something to apologise for, I'll do so. Until then ...
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
You refuse to accept responsibility for that scenario spiraling out of control.
[/QUOTE]
That's wholly on Erdawn's shoulders ... or if your system is the 'official' system, it is the fault of the system itself. I also don't think the battle 'spiraled out of control', except perhaps in Erdawn's final post.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
You refuse simply to play by the rules.
[/QUOTE]
Haven't broken a rule yet, and don't plan to in future.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
But you know what?
I'm still waiting for you to accept that challenge. If you have a problem with what I'm saying or my philosophy on how battling should work, by all means, make yourself clear in that. We'll work out our differences most expediently.
[/QUOTE]
This dispute isn't simply going to go away - a Gunjin battle won't solve any differences between us at all. Most of all, it would not be fun for me or you.
I am interested in battling Metal Man, however. Not now of course (busyness, life and all that), but in the future I'd love to face you in a topic with real limits.
There are a couple of things I want to say in addition to this. From comments that you have made, Wyborn, it seems like there's been bitching behind my back between you and Erdawn, but neither of you brought up anything with me until well after I was done with my posts, and Erdawn has said nothing to me at all.
Secondly, I still find it amazing that you're complaining not about something my character has done in past posts, or something she did in the last post, but something that she might do in future posts. That complaint could be applied to any character in the entirety of the Gunjin - complaining that a character might do something cheap in the future is stupid, because every character could do something cheap in the future. Any character can be written to do anything - hell, even if you've specifically said they can't, since you could just have them "discover" new capabilities or reveal that they do indeed actually fence right-handed.
I have one final question though - what do you have to say about all this, Erdawn?
Actually that doesn't explain it to me any better either: either you refuse to accept the obvious reality of your character (can retroactively change the fabric of the universe), or this is true in addition to you not thinking through the implications of her abilities to any degree. In any case that's not a matter of me needing to "smarten up", it's a matter of you needing to create a character who isn't God.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Improperly phrased. Reality-altering powers up to a certain degree are obviously acceptable: my character Luther also changes the fabric of reality, through his dreams and through his waking will, but the changes he makes aren't retroactive, it's beyond his abilities to affect the existence of other characters who already exist, and the magnitude of the changes he can create are relatively limited.
None of those factors are true of Lucille, who can essentially do anything she wants; given that, your question is moot.
[/QUOTE]
I've already repeatedly stated the limitations of Lucille's powers, but I'm glad for the information on your stance on reality powers anyway.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Irrelevant, and almost hilariously beside the point: there's no such thing as an ideal Gunjin character, there are just good ideas and bad ideas.
Lucille is a collection of bad ideas.
[/QUOTE]
Really? Not even a set of criteria for one?
I literally snorted in contempt for you in response to that last statement. Really, come on.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Ah! That's actually a fair deal more legitimate, insofar as questions go, so I will try to answer it.
The ideal Battlefield battle, for me, is not characterized by the amount of violence or the power of the characters involved or dramatic dialogue between them or philosophical exchanges or anything like that.
The ideal battle, the contests that we regularly participate in, is not a contest: it is a joint venture between two people to write out something extremely interesting, not for the sake of victory but for the sake of writing something extremely interesting. They would play off of each other's strengths, writing for both characters as best they can, working within a scenario that they set up together and creating something that is a product of their own interest, something that everybody can enjoy simply because it makes good reading.
See, Kargath, there's actually a place within my "ideal battle" for Lucille...
[/QUOTE]
That's something interesting. Your challenge has now been upgraded from snowflake's to snowball's chance of happening.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
But tournaments are never places where my ideal battles take place because they are by nature competitive. This means that, while there is a place for imbalance of power between characters in my ideal battle (assuming that this is agreed upon by the authors beforehand), there is not necessarily a place for anything like that in a tournament, which means that there is not any place for Lucille. She doesn't fit. The concept doesn't fit, the narrative behind her doesn't fit, the setup to be integral to the existence of all universes doens't fit, none of it fits because in a situation like this one she's cheap to the point that the narrative you set up has to be ignored for the sake of the battle.
See what I mean there? Introducing Lucille into any situation where two authors compete means that you induce a circumstance in direct contrast to my ideal battle: where one author almost literally has to ignore the other, as Erdawn was forced to do with you.
[/QUOTE]
Tackled above already. Lucille is not 'cheap', and Erdawn was only 'forced' to ignore the entire continuity of the battle if he was operating under your system.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
What needs to be understood here, Kargath, is that you've gone against the literal spirit of the Battlefield in several respects.
Firstly, you show a lack of respect for the other authors here. That's not referring to your personal jabs at me - though it certainly could be - it's referring to the fact that the scenarios you create put you in a position where their creative input doesn't mean anything unless they begin to ignore you. That's very nearly the battlefield equivalent of trolling.
[/QUOTE]
That's both low AND untrue. Let's go through my battles in order, shall we?
Fight 1 - Inferno vs Unnamed (The Doll)
Let's see, in this fight we have Inferno's attacks not affecting the battle ... pretty much nowhere. Hell, by the end of the fight The Doll was a ****ing torso on a crystal shelf. The Doll did have an invincible torso, but it's pretty damn hard to hit anything with that. The setup for the battle was also very open - I mean, I had two seperate ideas that I was going to let Inferno randomly pick from, and the one that he chose was in itself a very open setup. I mean, I described the cave system, I mentioned the rumors of power etc in the crystal cave, but it was completely up to Inferno what he chose to do with that. Even when I struck my hardest blow, I left an opening for what would happen next.
Fight 2 - The AI Arena
This fight turned out nothing like I expected, actually. I created a scenario with an all-powerful overlord jacked up on caffiene, created my character that I would be using, then told Asnabel in the chat thread that he was free and intended to use Lucas himself. Lucas was designed to give us both more creative freedom in the fight - but then Asna introduced Hot Pocket Man and it turned into a standard adversarial fight. :/
Fight 3 - Richter vs Lucille
Again, I create a very wide scope opening. I specify that something was very bad with the story, but I deliberately left it unspecified as to what it was, leaving Erdawn free to specify what it would be and how it would affect things. Then he didn't specify it at all, and I was forced to make up something (taking the wrong road) in order to keep the story consistent. As for the reality modification - if Erdawn hadn't been called away to shoot cardboard targets and the fight had gone longer, you would most definitely have seen its limits.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Secondly, you create a character who can quite literally do anything - up to and including changing the past so that things were always in the state of change that she brings about. This is problematic because, again, it makes the battle completely uninteresting from a narrative standpoint unless you're ignored, and it's even less fun to watch for anybody else. More than that, it breaks the rules, specifically battle-specific rule number 4, which reads "Assume that you and your enemy are more or less even." With Lucille that assumption is impossible, so, you know, that's cheap. I can say that reflexively and not feel a twinge of hesitation. Actually, it also breaks general rule number 3, which reads "Don't act uber-powerful compared to everyone around you." So, you know, that's two rules broken right there, and the fact that this has to be brought up when you're fighting Richter compounds the sheer ridiculousness of it all.
[/QUOTE]
Already addressed above, so I hardly think that any rules have been broken.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Thirdly, your narrative inserts your character into a pivotal role in the narratives of other characters. That's in extremely bad taste, to the point that I thought it too obvious to actually put in the rules when I wrote them down: you don't insert yourself into the past of anyone else's character, regardless of how you do it, but especially if this puts you in a position of power against them. That goes beyond just being poor form. It's something that has ot be ignored in order for the battle to proceed properly.
[/QUOTE]
No, seriously? Come on, Wyborn.Every battle in the Gunjin involves insertion.
In every battle, a character and a location is established, and another character is inserted into the story by the other author.
There is no escaping this fact, save in the situation where the initiator creates MULTIPLE characters and hands off control of one or more to the other 'player'.
As for MY battle, it was Erdawn's choice to bring in the character with the gigantic established backstory. I left it open for ANYTHING, and he chose Richter.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Fourthly, your character can't be killed because of consequences coming about as a result of killing said character. Yes, yes, some characters would try to kill her regardless, but this isn't about Richter being a looney tune, it's about we other authors trying to wrestle with the idea of your narrative, which might as well just read "neener neener neener, you can't kill me because it will totally kill you too, for ever, neener neener neener." That's not meant to sound derogatory, it's literally the way that you set up the situation: Lucille can't be killed unless we happen to ignore the repercussions that come around as a result of her death, or as a result of her not being able to take care of the vaunted "Book".
[/QUOTE]
Under a literary, skill based system it is quite possible to deal with the concept as presented - in fact a good author would leap at it and embrace it. The opportunities are there for extreme character development - if you kill Lucille without knowing the consequences, it would provide a great opportunity to show the character's personality in the face of the end of their world. You could have people like Richter and Terror, who would love the opportunity. You could even show a submissive character, one who chooses to allow themselves to be adjusted. All these possiblities and more - and in a skill based system, any of them could still win you the match.
Under YOUR system, it's certainly not as easy to deal with.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Do you notice a thread in all of these things I'm bringing up? In order to get past them, those aspects of your character have to be outright ignored, reducing her to a self-important librarian who says words.
And that's exactly what happened.
Did you notice, there? In order to preserve his own narrative integrity, Erdawn ignored Lucille's reality-changing powers having any dominance over Richter, ignored how you made the Book so important to the existence of Richter, ignored the general cosmology you set up, ignored the impenetrable barrier around the book, and ignored the established power level of Lucille. Don't think he did? Hell, ask him! He'll tell you that he had to ignore all of that for the sake of writing something reasonable, and I'll bet you ten to one he'll laugh while he says it.
[/QUOTE]
I did see that, and was to put it lightly, disgusted by it. The fact that he did it without even providing a reason in the story makes it all the worse.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
Lucille's cheapness is more than just a sum of her abilities and the improprieties of creating a character like that in this context:
When somebody like Erdawn, hands down one of the most creative people I've ever met, decides that he can't work around the situation you've created and is therefore forced to simply ignore parts of it and assert his own version of reality, it means that you did something terribly, terribly wrong.
You stepped out of line with your character.
You stepped out of line with your scenario.
[/QUOTE]
I created a scenario and character which was good, which was well-written and provided plenty of room to manoeuvre. Nothing 'out of line' there - unless I'm 'supposed' to be creating an inferior character to Erdawn?
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
You addressed me in an unreasonable tone with no provocation.
[/QUOTE]
I speak the same way to everyone who ignores the evidence in front of them repeatedly. Illogicism is provocation enough.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
You refuse to see what you did wrong during all of this.
[/QUOTE]
When there's something to apologise for, I'll do so. Until then ...
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
You refuse to accept responsibility for that scenario spiraling out of control.
[/QUOTE]
That's wholly on Erdawn's shoulders ... or if your system is the 'official' system, it is the fault of the system itself. I also don't think the battle 'spiraled out of control', except perhaps in Erdawn's final post.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
You refuse simply to play by the rules.
[/QUOTE]
Haven't broken a rule yet, and don't plan to in future.
[QUOTE=Wyborn]
But you know what?
I'm still waiting for you to accept that challenge. If you have a problem with what I'm saying or my philosophy on how battling should work, by all means, make yourself clear in that. We'll work out our differences most expediently.
[/QUOTE]
This dispute isn't simply going to go away - a Gunjin battle won't solve any differences between us at all. Most of all, it would not be fun for me or you.
I am interested in battling Metal Man, however. Not now of course (busyness, life and all that), but in the future I'd love to face you in a topic with real limits.
There are a couple of things I want to say in addition to this. From comments that you have made, Wyborn, it seems like there's been bitching behind my back between you and Erdawn, but neither of you brought up anything with me until well after I was done with my posts, and Erdawn has said nothing to me at all.
Secondly, I still find it amazing that you're complaining not about something my character has done in past posts, or something she did in the last post, but something that she might do in future posts. That complaint could be applied to any character in the entirety of the Gunjin - complaining that a character might do something cheap in the future is stupid, because every character could do something cheap in the future. Any character can be written to do anything - hell, even if you've specifically said they can't, since you could just have them "discover" new capabilities or reveal that they do indeed actually fence right-handed.
I have one final question though - what do you have to say about all this, Erdawn?
Why is it drug addicts and computer afficionados are both called users?
-Clifford Stoll
-Clifford Stoll
-
Wyborn
- Member
- Posts: 12269
- Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2000 1:00 am
- Location: All over the place
Ah-ha. I see the problem, then, in its totality.
To anyone who likes battling for what it is: I'm with you, you can skip this post. This will, however, be interesting to people who are really into writing for the sake of writing stories, or people who are into both depending on their mood (like me).
To begin:
You see, Kargath, in one way you're actually further along the path that I've been meaning to walk on this board, chiefly because the transition onto that path has to be taken slowly so as to not break the current spirit of the board. Allowing time for change is intensely important.
What I mean here is that I absolutely agree that the ideal battle isn't a battle between the characters of two authors (or even a contest, which you still hold it to be), so much as it is a battle between characters as orchestrated by two authors in conjunction. That's a beautiful idea, and if you will help fulfil the possibility I will carry you on my back to the ends of the Earth.
However, as of yet that is simply not the case: the NintendoLand Battlefield (and that's what this place really is) is at its heart an adversarial board and has been for something like seven or eight years now. The change is coming slowly where it is coming at all, and it can't be rushed. That this is an adversarial board, I thought, was clear in the rules topic that I made back when I was mod: that's why there is so much focus on regulating the power differences between characters, because for many years that's all this board has been about. Like I said, it's changing, but it's not to where I'd like to see it yet.
Now, with that out of the way, I think you can see the chief problem with your approach to battles in the NLBFT (this one in particular): you do not treat them as adversarial meetings when the reality of the situation is that that's what they are. The reason my brother (Asnabel) created Geoff as an opponent for your programmer is because that is the modus operandi of the field; the reason that Richter entered with express intent to turn Lucille inside out is that that is the nature of the tournament.
Yes, writing plays its part in the NLBFT, it always has: when Shinigami judged he actually quantified how important writing was compared to the battle itself, but he was referring to prose and narrative style rather than storybuilding, which was still encompassed in the battle. The problem is that you're looking for something that's simply not what the NLBFT is: that's why the judges often refer to the performance of characters in their stated judgements. That's why Richter biting off Lucille's hand is probably the most important thing either of you did up until the point that he left Lucille screaming on that infinite black shore. That's why your method of setting up a scenario for both people to write within doesn't mesh well with the tournament itself. In spite of any niceties, this is still chiefly about two people fighting.
Given that, I'm sure it's clear to you why Lucille doesn't fit and why disgust/outrage at this is just as inappropriate. You came into the board with a very good idea, but you tried to assert it in place of the system; hell, not even that. Your confusion tells me you didn't even really notice the system we have in place. Right? So you come in with expectations for an exercise that aren't going to be fulfilled; you can't be upset when you get metaphorically slapped back into line. It happens to all of us in new places where we don't try to integrate first (KAF, for some of us), and you have to recognize that if you're going to be a successful battler here - or author, whichever you prefer.
Now, I have a proposal, but first a couple of things need to be gotten out of the way, and I want you to pay attention to them. Try not to react strongly, because I'm just trying to be truthful and help you out, here.
Firstly, it is never appropriate or necessary to address any member of this board (or any other board, while you are at it) in the tone or with the words you have used to address me. It's uncalled for, it's hurtful, and it does nothing to help prove your point. Please, for the sake of whatever time you want to spend here, refrain from talking to anyone in that way in the future. Whatever justification you have, it is not enough; this is especially true when your justification hinges chiefly on a misunderstanding that I think you will agree (given the nature of this board) was of your own making. Chill out. We are a friendly group and we like to keep things friendly.
Secondly, regardless of the scenario you set up you have to always be prepared for the idea that you are dealing with authors whose ideas are just as encompassing (or even moreso) than your own, and you have to work with that. Most authors here have their own established multiverse: Erdawn has his Yggdrasil, I have my myriad worlds separated by an ethereal drape, you have your Book, on and on. Some don't care about the worlds they establish, but it is obvious than many do, and that has to be respected; me and Erdawn treated this subject with all the respect we were capable of in Wytos, blending our overarching stories together for a brush between gulfs that we very rarely write about.
The important thing to note here is that you have to set down when you want to write a joint story (check out the End to Boredom topic). When you set down the idea for this story, and the other person takes it as a "sovereign" story of yours and answers with one of theirs (see: Lucille and Richter) it is important to note that a certain boundary has to be set: each author always owns their own story. You created a world in which Erdawn could create an anomaly fitting within that world, and you would run from there; Erdawn entered with the assumption that the two of you were having a fight (for reasons previously stated). Though it wasn't your intent, what we had working there was two sovereign stories butting heads against each other, and authors here do not care nearly as much about their characters as they do the established narratives from which they hail. Without realizing it you infringed on Erdawn's sovereign story by declaring it under the blanket of your own (and yes, I know it was unintentional), and Erdawn responded in the only way that would be possible while still maintaining his dominance over his own story: ignoring your own claim.
Ugly? Yes. Crude? Certainly. For you it was a matter of "I set up a scenario for us to enter into together and he entered with the wrong person", for him it was "I offered up a part of my own story and it was trodden upon - that is not forgivable." This is what happened, I saw it happen, though I didn't realize the fullness of it any more than either one of you did. But it's important to keep in mind that ill feelings are inappropriate here, because the slights from both sides arose from misunderstanding rather than ill intent.
I think that covers nearly all that needs to be said; certainly your assertion of the dominance of your characters makes sense given you were trying to create scenarios where they were either the impetus of all action or responding to what you hoped would be a threat arising from the scenario you created. Similarly, it is also clear why everyone else came in looking for a fight: it's the chief part of what's done here, good or bad.
Just a couple more things, then I will lay this small wall of text to rest.
Firstly, the combat (victory, violence, whatever) is not the sole focus of the NLBFT. It is the sole focus of the Tournament of Red Lions, which I suggest you look into if only because it may interest you to see us at our most base and brutal.
Secondly, I am creating a tournament, perhaps called the Tournament of White Roses, which is based solely upon the ability of the two contestants to weave an interesting, quality narrative (which just happens to take the form of a battle...usually), scary or energetic or funny or whatever. That said, I am not sure the board is entirely ready for it, and when I set it up it will probably take place on a smaller scale than the NLBFT and the Red Lions, at least the first time. If you are interested, though, it is coming, and with any luck at all it will be good.
Thirdly, lastly, my proposal: with misunderstandings made clear and an olive branch offered to you, with a clear understanding that I want to write something rather than just have a battle between two arbitrarily nearby characters (though I love that too), I hope you will be more inclined to accept my challenge.
There's no need to argue here; I am not looking for a rebuttal. I am looking for a reply.
Now, can we please get some judgements?
I am ready to see more ass-kickings.
To anyone who likes battling for what it is: I'm with you, you can skip this post. This will, however, be interesting to people who are really into writing for the sake of writing stories, or people who are into both depending on their mood (like me).
To begin:
You see, Kargath, in one way you're actually further along the path that I've been meaning to walk on this board, chiefly because the transition onto that path has to be taken slowly so as to not break the current spirit of the board. Allowing time for change is intensely important.
What I mean here is that I absolutely agree that the ideal battle isn't a battle between the characters of two authors (or even a contest, which you still hold it to be), so much as it is a battle between characters as orchestrated by two authors in conjunction. That's a beautiful idea, and if you will help fulfil the possibility I will carry you on my back to the ends of the Earth.
However, as of yet that is simply not the case: the NintendoLand Battlefield (and that's what this place really is) is at its heart an adversarial board and has been for something like seven or eight years now. The change is coming slowly where it is coming at all, and it can't be rushed. That this is an adversarial board, I thought, was clear in the rules topic that I made back when I was mod: that's why there is so much focus on regulating the power differences between characters, because for many years that's all this board has been about. Like I said, it's changing, but it's not to where I'd like to see it yet.
Now, with that out of the way, I think you can see the chief problem with your approach to battles in the NLBFT (this one in particular): you do not treat them as adversarial meetings when the reality of the situation is that that's what they are. The reason my brother (Asnabel) created Geoff as an opponent for your programmer is because that is the modus operandi of the field; the reason that Richter entered with express intent to turn Lucille inside out is that that is the nature of the tournament.
Yes, writing plays its part in the NLBFT, it always has: when Shinigami judged he actually quantified how important writing was compared to the battle itself, but he was referring to prose and narrative style rather than storybuilding, which was still encompassed in the battle. The problem is that you're looking for something that's simply not what the NLBFT is: that's why the judges often refer to the performance of characters in their stated judgements. That's why Richter biting off Lucille's hand is probably the most important thing either of you did up until the point that he left Lucille screaming on that infinite black shore. That's why your method of setting up a scenario for both people to write within doesn't mesh well with the tournament itself. In spite of any niceties, this is still chiefly about two people fighting.
Given that, I'm sure it's clear to you why Lucille doesn't fit and why disgust/outrage at this is just as inappropriate. You came into the board with a very good idea, but you tried to assert it in place of the system; hell, not even that. Your confusion tells me you didn't even really notice the system we have in place. Right? So you come in with expectations for an exercise that aren't going to be fulfilled; you can't be upset when you get metaphorically slapped back into line. It happens to all of us in new places where we don't try to integrate first (KAF, for some of us), and you have to recognize that if you're going to be a successful battler here - or author, whichever you prefer.
Now, I have a proposal, but first a couple of things need to be gotten out of the way, and I want you to pay attention to them. Try not to react strongly, because I'm just trying to be truthful and help you out, here.
Firstly, it is never appropriate or necessary to address any member of this board (or any other board, while you are at it) in the tone or with the words you have used to address me. It's uncalled for, it's hurtful, and it does nothing to help prove your point. Please, for the sake of whatever time you want to spend here, refrain from talking to anyone in that way in the future. Whatever justification you have, it is not enough; this is especially true when your justification hinges chiefly on a misunderstanding that I think you will agree (given the nature of this board) was of your own making. Chill out. We are a friendly group and we like to keep things friendly.
Secondly, regardless of the scenario you set up you have to always be prepared for the idea that you are dealing with authors whose ideas are just as encompassing (or even moreso) than your own, and you have to work with that. Most authors here have their own established multiverse: Erdawn has his Yggdrasil, I have my myriad worlds separated by an ethereal drape, you have your Book, on and on. Some don't care about the worlds they establish, but it is obvious than many do, and that has to be respected; me and Erdawn treated this subject with all the respect we were capable of in Wytos, blending our overarching stories together for a brush between gulfs that we very rarely write about.
The important thing to note here is that you have to set down when you want to write a joint story (check out the End to Boredom topic). When you set down the idea for this story, and the other person takes it as a "sovereign" story of yours and answers with one of theirs (see: Lucille and Richter) it is important to note that a certain boundary has to be set: each author always owns their own story. You created a world in which Erdawn could create an anomaly fitting within that world, and you would run from there; Erdawn entered with the assumption that the two of you were having a fight (for reasons previously stated). Though it wasn't your intent, what we had working there was two sovereign stories butting heads against each other, and authors here do not care nearly as much about their characters as they do the established narratives from which they hail. Without realizing it you infringed on Erdawn's sovereign story by declaring it under the blanket of your own (and yes, I know it was unintentional), and Erdawn responded in the only way that would be possible while still maintaining his dominance over his own story: ignoring your own claim.
Ugly? Yes. Crude? Certainly. For you it was a matter of "I set up a scenario for us to enter into together and he entered with the wrong person", for him it was "I offered up a part of my own story and it was trodden upon - that is not forgivable." This is what happened, I saw it happen, though I didn't realize the fullness of it any more than either one of you did. But it's important to keep in mind that ill feelings are inappropriate here, because the slights from both sides arose from misunderstanding rather than ill intent.
I think that covers nearly all that needs to be said; certainly your assertion of the dominance of your characters makes sense given you were trying to create scenarios where they were either the impetus of all action or responding to what you hoped would be a threat arising from the scenario you created. Similarly, it is also clear why everyone else came in looking for a fight: it's the chief part of what's done here, good or bad.
Just a couple more things, then I will lay this small wall of text to rest.
Firstly, the combat (victory, violence, whatever) is not the sole focus of the NLBFT. It is the sole focus of the Tournament of Red Lions, which I suggest you look into if only because it may interest you to see us at our most base and brutal.
Secondly, I am creating a tournament, perhaps called the Tournament of White Roses, which is based solely upon the ability of the two contestants to weave an interesting, quality narrative (which just happens to take the form of a battle...usually), scary or energetic or funny or whatever. That said, I am not sure the board is entirely ready for it, and when I set it up it will probably take place on a smaller scale than the NLBFT and the Red Lions, at least the first time. If you are interested, though, it is coming, and with any luck at all it will be good.
Thirdly, lastly, my proposal: with misunderstandings made clear and an olive branch offered to you, with a clear understanding that I want to write something rather than just have a battle between two arbitrarily nearby characters (though I love that too), I hope you will be more inclined to accept my challenge.
There's no need to argue here; I am not looking for a rebuttal. I am looking for a reply.
Now, can we please get some judgements?
I am ready to see more ass-kickings.
Help me out with the best fanfiction ever, Ganondorf Beats Up EVERYONE! You decide who gets beaten!
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Videospirit
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Also, you'd be surprised how much information you can glean by having a gunjin battle with someone. Although maybe not everyone's as good at gleaning information from text as I am. Also, technically, you should of been disgusted with yourself before you were disgusted with Erdawn because you ignored Erdawn's scenario before he ignored you by forcing his character Richter into your universe, it's only appropriate that he force himself out of it.
Also, you have a very similar view of time as me kargath, but There is "technically" a way to travel "back in time" with that setup. It takes a tremendous amount of energy, but if you were to force time to "flow backwards" That is alter the rules so that every moment in time causes the actions of the equivalent moment before time starting flowing backwards to be undone, while not altering an arbitrary time traveler, they would be able to effectively travel back in time, if they could survive the process. I also consider time to flow at different rates in different places, which is the principle behind haste and slow spells, not sure if you share that opinion.
The end effect would be something very like the movie the Time Machine based on the book of the same name. One time traveler sitting inside his time machine, where time flows at an extremely slow pace, while time flows backwards or forwards outside the machine at an extremely fast pace. To the traveler in the machine, history seems to pass in the blink of an eye.
Also, you have a very similar view of time as me kargath, but There is "technically" a way to travel "back in time" with that setup. It takes a tremendous amount of energy, but if you were to force time to "flow backwards" That is alter the rules so that every moment in time causes the actions of the equivalent moment before time starting flowing backwards to be undone, while not altering an arbitrary time traveler, they would be able to effectively travel back in time, if they could survive the process. I also consider time to flow at different rates in different places, which is the principle behind haste and slow spells, not sure if you share that opinion.
The end effect would be something very like the movie the Time Machine based on the book of the same name. One time traveler sitting inside his time machine, where time flows at an extremely slow pace, while time flows backwards or forwards outside the machine at an extremely fast pace. To the traveler in the machine, history seems to pass in the blink of an eye.
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Erdawn Il Deus
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Alright Kargath, if you want my opinion it's quite simple. In the case of the NLBFT, which is and always has been a contest focusing on beating your opponent - although appreciating more artistic license than Red Lions, which is really just a bash and brag of astounding entertainment, I appreciate the effort to make the battle more interesting, but you didn't really convey your intent that well, at least early on. In any case, my rebbutal (in term of actual battling) was really just a natural process. It's simple - in my entire continuity, Richter has been a being outside life's existance. He is an abberation on another being, my big sleeping turtle who carries... well, everything in the form of a tree on his back, actually held prisoner by the substantiality of the multiberse. I'm not going to bow down to what essentially is the dumbing down of what is more than anything a lovecraftean terror beyond the ability to do justice.
In layman's terms, he isn't a part of the book, and I don't even care about the rest of the worlds. And this isn't even a question of power - I subscribe very neatly to the Battlefield rule system - Richter is a prince and a pauper depending on the situation. So they were evenly matched regardless. What I acted upon was what I perceived as a weakness in Lucille's character - that being an amassement of knowledge and less understanding, which I turned against her. Had this battle been longer, it might have been drawn out, et cetera, and probably would have done us both more justice.
And that's that really.
In layman's terms, he isn't a part of the book, and I don't even care about the rest of the worlds. And this isn't even a question of power - I subscribe very neatly to the Battlefield rule system - Richter is a prince and a pauper depending on the situation. So they were evenly matched regardless. What I acted upon was what I perceived as a weakness in Lucille's character - that being an amassement of knowledge and less understanding, which I turned against her. Had this battle been longer, it might have been drawn out, et cetera, and probably would have done us both more justice.
And that's that really.
<i>\"We know how to sing but we don\'t know how to handle money or women. Do-wap, do do wop.\"</i>
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<i>Rx Prozach</i>: Toronto is one sucky Toronto. :P I can\'t imagine smoking enough pot to find a shoe museum interes
-The Runaway Five
<i>Rx Prozach</i>: Toronto is one sucky Toronto. :P I can\'t imagine smoking enough pot to find a shoe museum interes
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Metal Man
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A ha. See, this is what I was curious about, but couldn't get at.Wyborn wrote:However, as of yet that is simply not the case: the NintendoLand Battlefield (and that's what this place really is) is at its heart an adversarial board and has been for something like seven or eight years now. The change is coming slowly where it is coming at all, and it can't be rushed. That this is an adversarial board, I thought, was clear in the rules topic that I made back when I was mod: that's why there is so much focus on regulating the power differences between characters, because for many years that's all this board has been about. Like I said, it's changing, but it's not to where I'd like to see it yet.
See, the major changes in my preferred battle style came from flying around the internet and picking up stuff from everywhere. I learned rather well that the highest form of battling for me was more of story writing than anything else, and then came back, interested in using that.
But while I evolved from 7 years, this place apparently did not change.
Hence my entire clash with stuff earlier. It was still doing stuff I only did 3, 4 years ago in its battles. It's too easy to auto-hit people and do all that stuff.
If one viewed it more like a story, then one could simply go within limitations, blah blah blah...
But if that is your goal, then I respect that, and shall wait until (next tournament) or somesuch. And of course, for you to finish work on evolving the forum before I do any major battles again...
As I predicted, a mere misunderstanding.
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The Willful Wanderer
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It has all come together, yes?
Now, you see, this makes me VERY disappointed with my battle with Metal Man altogether. It has now become abundantly clear that we could have had a hell of a lot more fun and written something much more interesting, despite not being particularly within the spirit of the NLBFT, had we not been approaching this battle with the mindset of the NLBFT.
Kargath, Wyborn, do you now see why I encouraged the continuation of this argument? The longer you two poked, prodded, explained, and rebuked, the more it became clear to me that there was something mismatched about expectations- I wish I could say that I knew what, but that would be both lying and arrogant, so I won't. I really had no idea what the error itself actually was- I only knew that there was something here out of whack that was most distinctly *not* a matter of one person being right and the other wrong- making this, in my eyes, one of the best kinds of arguments, and only to be encouraged.
Because you were both right.
Metal Man, once I have enough time and somewhere after the NLBFT, I am going to want to get in a real chunk of written battle with you. And then after that, one with Kargath. Both in the spirit you have both referred to, rather than the default one of the Gunjin.
Mind, the base state of the Gunjin certainly has its place, and it's fun to write that way too- but I'd really like to be able to demonstrate the other kind of writing I can do without having to commit to a story topic that will probably die before it completes- something that Wyborn has seen me do elsewhere, but that's about it. I *would* turn to the RP board here for that, but that board is much more geared towards a video-RPG mentality of set storyline with a definable 'win' at the end, and not towards short-stories involving characters who may wind up running into one another again later for another short-story, provided they all survive the current one, and impacted by what happens.
Is that paragraph clear? It makes sense in my head, but I think I might be talking in confusion now.
Anyways- good show.
Now, you see, this makes me VERY disappointed with my battle with Metal Man altogether. It has now become abundantly clear that we could have had a hell of a lot more fun and written something much more interesting, despite not being particularly within the spirit of the NLBFT, had we not been approaching this battle with the mindset of the NLBFT.
Kargath, Wyborn, do you now see why I encouraged the continuation of this argument? The longer you two poked, prodded, explained, and rebuked, the more it became clear to me that there was something mismatched about expectations- I wish I could say that I knew what, but that would be both lying and arrogant, so I won't. I really had no idea what the error itself actually was- I only knew that there was something here out of whack that was most distinctly *not* a matter of one person being right and the other wrong- making this, in my eyes, one of the best kinds of arguments, and only to be encouraged.
Because you were both right.
Metal Man, once I have enough time and somewhere after the NLBFT, I am going to want to get in a real chunk of written battle with you. And then after that, one with Kargath. Both in the spirit you have both referred to, rather than the default one of the Gunjin.
Mind, the base state of the Gunjin certainly has its place, and it's fun to write that way too- but I'd really like to be able to demonstrate the other kind of writing I can do without having to commit to a story topic that will probably die before it completes- something that Wyborn has seen me do elsewhere, but that's about it. I *would* turn to the RP board here for that, but that board is much more geared towards a video-RPG mentality of set storyline with a definable 'win' at the end, and not towards short-stories involving characters who may wind up running into one another again later for another short-story, provided they all survive the current one, and impacted by what happens.
Is that paragraph clear? It makes sense in my head, but I think I might be talking in confusion now.
Anyways- good show.
\"What if nothing means anything? What if nothing really matters?.....
...Or suppose <b><i>EVERYTHING</b></i> matters. Which would be worse?\"
-Calvin
\"Joke \'em if they can\'t take a f$%k.\"
...Or suppose <b><i>EVERYTHING</b></i> matters. Which would be worse?\"
-Calvin
\"Joke \'em if they can\'t take a f$%k.\"
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Wyborn
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...man...huh?Metal Man wrote:A ha. See, this is what I was curious about, but couldn't get at.
See, the major changes in my preferred battle style came from flying around the internet and picking up stuff from everywhere. I learned rather well that the highest form of battling for me was more of story writing than anything else, and then came back, interested in using that.
But while I evolved from 7 years, this place apparently did not change.
Hence my entire clash with stuff earlier. It was still doing stuff I only did 3, 4 years ago in its battles. It's too easy to auto-hit people and do all that stuff.
If one viewed it more like a story, then one could simply go within limitations, blah blah blah...
But if that is your goal, then I respect that, and shall wait until (next tournament) or somesuch. And of course, for you to finish work on evolving the forum before I do any major battles again...
As I predicted, a mere misunderstanding.
Metal Man, your method of battling as you've described it...hold on, lemme see if I get this.
Your method is adversarial (still about the fight, contest between two people), focuses on prose (the language used to communicate ideas), and you are completely hands-off with the other character because you don't like "auto-hitting".
My method as described is cooperative, focuses on narrative (the ideas communicated by the language), and I believe in authors sharing complete control of the characters on hand at the moment, so "auto-hitting" wouldn't just be the norm, it would be so commonplace and natural that no one would think about it.
What you're describing, Metal, isn't some new idea that grew within you while the BF remained stagnant and unchanged. What you describe is how the BF was seven years ago. Your method is closer to chat battling, because it's still about the fight, the language becomes the focus of your writing, and you use a "Fire and Forget" style that no one around here has used since...uh...the Hyrule Battlefield. If you want a place that's already suited to your style in one fashion or another, you might want to look at the Keiichi Anime Forever forums.
Of course, there may be miscommunication happening here, too.
Help me out with the best fanfiction ever, Ganondorf Beats Up EVERYONE! You decide who gets beaten!
For the battle-minded and mathematically inclined, there's the Hyrulian War, a revived time-honored tradition!
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Videospirit
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Firestorm
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Perspectives
Rather than expecting this entire board the "evolve," as Wyborn is apparently hoping for, I think it would be better to simply create another forum or move to a different website, or else just be more specific at the outset of each battle which style we are aiming for. (Example: the Spider-King fight currently underway)
Why?
Because that is not what the NLBF/Gunjin has been about in the past, nor do I want to see it become that. The battlefield is, go figure, a battlefield. At its heart, this is a battlefield where characters are brought to life by the author's imagination and then unleashed on each other, with the one restriction that all characters are created equal.
Granted, we have the occasional story topic to keep things interesting, and several unique topics have been introduced that differ from our standard dueling fare, but the lifeblood of this board has always been battles. The vast majority of these battles don't even have a story behind them. It's merely, "Here's my guy, where's yours, let's fight!"
One style is cooperative, the other is competitive. In one you seek to annihilate your opponent's character, in the other you help them evolve.
I realize that the two styles overlap each other in certain areas. Both of them (at least here in the Gunjin) involve a conflict between two characters, usually physical and violent. And in both of them, you control both your own and your opponent's characters. In my own battles, I am (usually) generous with opponent's actions, portaying them as having an edge over my own, inventing attacks for them to use on me, etc. In that respect, I cooperate with the other author to a degree. However, as much stuff as I have my opponent do in my own post, the end result is always the same: I inflict massive amounts of damage to their body.
I don't want to see our current style "evolve" into the other. Heck, I don't even like using the term "evolve," because that implies that one is better than the other. "Morph" or "change" or whatever is more like it. We clearly have two different directions (or more) that this board can travel.
With that recognized, let me say that the competitive style has been the style of the board since its conception, and I happen to like that style. When I post, I'm looking for a good challenging fight, not the opportunity to write a good story. Unless I'm in a story topic, but that's different.
That's not to say that I don't like writing good stories, nor do I dislike other people writing their stories. Writing a good story is at least part of what we do here. We have to tell a story in order to depict our fights. However, we don't even need to pretend that there even is a story behind our fights, or a reason for their conflict. This a battlefield. In my view (and of course this whole post is merely my humble opinion) the competitive style is more suited to the conflicts we write about.
If we did have another forum dedicated to a different style of writing, you can bet I would show up there too. But, this the Gunjin. The Battlefield. Not a roleplaying board.
------------------------------
I had more to say, but I lost my motivation. Someone will disagree with me, and explain why my view is flawed, and they will be nice about it, too, but I'm exhausted enough from real life that I don't care to exert myself any more on that here.
Maybe that's one of the reasons the simpler, more competitive approach appeals to me.
In any case, the deeper style is fine in my book, too. But I don't want to see the whole board move in that direction.
I think that, in the wake of this discussion, we should be more specific about our intentions when start a new topic, in order to prevent misunderstandings or style conflicts.
Rather than expecting this entire board the "evolve," as Wyborn is apparently hoping for, I think it would be better to simply create another forum or move to a different website, or else just be more specific at the outset of each battle which style we are aiming for. (Example: the Spider-King fight currently underway)
Why?
Because that is not what the NLBF/Gunjin has been about in the past, nor do I want to see it become that. The battlefield is, go figure, a battlefield. At its heart, this is a battlefield where characters are brought to life by the author's imagination and then unleashed on each other, with the one restriction that all characters are created equal.
Granted, we have the occasional story topic to keep things interesting, and several unique topics have been introduced that differ from our standard dueling fare, but the lifeblood of this board has always been battles. The vast majority of these battles don't even have a story behind them. It's merely, "Here's my guy, where's yours, let's fight!"
One style is cooperative, the other is competitive. In one you seek to annihilate your opponent's character, in the other you help them evolve.
I realize that the two styles overlap each other in certain areas. Both of them (at least here in the Gunjin) involve a conflict between two characters, usually physical and violent. And in both of them, you control both your own and your opponent's characters. In my own battles, I am (usually) generous with opponent's actions, portaying them as having an edge over my own, inventing attacks for them to use on me, etc. In that respect, I cooperate with the other author to a degree. However, as much stuff as I have my opponent do in my own post, the end result is always the same: I inflict massive amounts of damage to their body.
I don't want to see our current style "evolve" into the other. Heck, I don't even like using the term "evolve," because that implies that one is better than the other. "Morph" or "change" or whatever is more like it. We clearly have two different directions (or more) that this board can travel.
With that recognized, let me say that the competitive style has been the style of the board since its conception, and I happen to like that style. When I post, I'm looking for a good challenging fight, not the opportunity to write a good story. Unless I'm in a story topic, but that's different.
That's not to say that I don't like writing good stories, nor do I dislike other people writing their stories. Writing a good story is at least part of what we do here. We have to tell a story in order to depict our fights. However, we don't even need to pretend that there even is a story behind our fights, or a reason for their conflict. This a battlefield. In my view (and of course this whole post is merely my humble opinion) the competitive style is more suited to the conflicts we write about.
If we did have another forum dedicated to a different style of writing, you can bet I would show up there too. But, this the Gunjin. The Battlefield. Not a roleplaying board.
------------------------------
I had more to say, but I lost my motivation. Someone will disagree with me, and explain why my view is flawed, and they will be nice about it, too, but I'm exhausted enough from real life that I don't care to exert myself any more on that here.
Maybe that's one of the reasons the simpler, more competitive approach appeals to me.
In any case, the deeper style is fine in my book, too. But I don't want to see the whole board move in that direction.
I think that, in the wake of this discussion, we should be more specific about our intentions when start a new topic, in order to prevent misunderstandings or style conflicts.
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Wyborn
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I find nothing wrong with your post, Firestorm. That we should state our intent at the beginnings of battles is so sensible it seems a reflexive truth; there is no reason we cannot have both styles, separate but neither dominating the other, being used at the most appropriate time by the people best suited to it.
Seriously, though, where are the judges? This is going past monotonous and into mind-numbing.
Seriously, though, where are the judges? This is going past monotonous and into mind-numbing.
Help me out with the best fanfiction ever, Ganondorf Beats Up EVERYONE! You decide who gets beaten!
For the battle-minded and mathematically inclined, there's the Hyrulian War, a revived time-honored tradition!
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Metal Man
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Indeed. Knowing what I do now, I would fairly say the battle was messed up because of it. See, I can deal with people who are brutal with their NLBFT styles (see: Scripture) and win, and I can obviously crush people like Death. But if you aren't literally annihilating my character via auto-hits, I won't respond enough to really win the battle, or have much fun either.Selene Starblade wrote:Now, you see, this makes me VERY disappointed with my battle with Metal Man altogether. It has now become abundantly clear that we could have had a hell of a lot more fun and written something much more interesting, despite not being particularly within the spirit of the NLBFT, had we not been approaching this battle with the mindset of the NLBFT.
Then again, the NLBFT style seems sort of boring to me anyway, due to aformentioned stuff.
Anyway, whenever you have the time, I'm open for a battle in the sort of style we were talking about earlier.
As for Wyborn...
It's good to know I do have some hallmarks of old style, I was sort of afraid I'd lost all of it or something in the intervening 7 years. I am not surprised that 'fire and forget' dates back then, for it'd make sense why I came back here with the wrong idea in mind.
See, I joined before this forum existed and battled in the Nintendoland Battlefield monthly topic, and then in the forum proper.
I left shortly after the beginnnings of today's 'modern' NLBFT-type battles, and picked up new stuff across the internet, including a freeform place which runs specifically in the style I use now. I picked up their style and made it a part of my own. However, 'fire and forget' mentality never did get changed... seems to work everywhere.
Except here. Now. Which is what annoyed me originally.
Because I learned that style here, and many places (dice, freeform, what have you) accepted it with open arms, yet here people would take my attacks and make them all miss, then magically hit me with theirs. And even worse, when I tried to emulate how they work elsewhere, some people would complain about me missing too much???? (Seems nonsensical to me, because if there's any problem in most battles I see, it's everything hitting all the time with lethal damage.)
The 'evolution' you speak of Wyborn is not my style, no. But it would be one which would complement mine like all those other places do. If we made it cooperative storytelling, part of my thing would be to specify the fire and forget and such and how it'd work, so that whoever I cooperated with would then be free to choose (logically) about things hitting or missing. It already works, but for it to be beyond me just telling people, the cooperative storytelling would have to become de facto, or at least a popular choice.
Ironically, what I speak of contradicts Firestorm, because this evolution would benefit people like me who used the original style, the one preadating that one which is odd in how it does not work with mine...
However, I bring up a simply solution to what Firestorm says. In a cooperative environment, you can simply specify you'll be using those rules, and the foe specifies theirs. Both people can use both rules as long as they work together to understand them. And if working with the other person to make the fight more fun for both is beyond someone, technically they're still lost in Hyrule Battlefield.
'Cause it's that fight with Selene I'd like to do which will shine, not any fight I'd do begrudgingly against you, Wyborn. No offense; our styles just don't match. You're a great fighter, but if I did yours or you did mine, we'd probably just look ridiculous. Naturally we could learn one anothers, but... you don't really want to use mine anyway, do you? 'Cause I always feel awful forcing people to accept hits I've determined without knowing their character correctly or having any logic besides guessing behind it.
I see the answer; it is simply allowing for everyone's styles in battling, so that everyone can do their best; me, Kargath, Wyborn, Erdawn, Selene, Repster, Firestorn, et al. Nobody has to be a loser in this argument. No one style is 'better' than the other, the evolution would be into allowing many styles to coexist equally.
Of course, I could just be talking out of a hat and off my rocker, but that's my two cents.
Super Smash Quest: Fighting evil since 2002.
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Repster
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Metal Man
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Yes. Even I am now wondering what is taking them. And I already lost, so the outcome doesn't even really effect me! @_@
Super Smash Quest: Fighting evil since 2002.
Confirming the uncomfirmable
...
Well, I have to say this wasn't the result I was expecting.
I came here for a skill based contest.
What I got was what I shall dub "The Damage Challenge": simply say that you do more damage than your opponent. Also, make sure you're the one to make the final post, so you can ensure your damage total comes out on top.
I did of course, read the rules, but to me they seemed a set of constructs to direct the stories and provide structure. The chief element missing there is a vision, a directive to those new to the board as to what your aim should be when writing in any topic here.
So, lacking a directive, I synthesised it - reverse-engineered it from the surrounding text in the forum. Without any further information, I reasoned that the NLBFT was a skill-based tourney, for how else could it be done?
It's sad that my logic that arrived at the correct conclusion did not provide me the right conclusion.
That a tourney could even be partly decided by who declares that they hit the opponent more makes my mouth curl south. In the end, whatever portion of the score allocated to damage done will be a broken proportion, a proportion awarded to those who do not keep consistency, who ignore their opponent, who simply follow the optimal strategy I mentioned in my last post.
So for as long as the BF and the NLBFT function that way, I will end my participation after I am done with number 11.
I am, however, at least mildly interested in battling with you now, Wyborn. Maybe. I am also very interested in this proposed tournament of yours, and would appreciate a PM when/if you ever set it up.
It should be noted I am not proposing removing the fighting from the Battlefield. There should be stories about fighting here, of course. What I am proposing is moving to stories about fighting, rather than descriptions of attacks. I also think that as long as the NLBFT is judged (even partially) on how much damage a person says they do, then the tournament is fundamentally broken.
I make no apologies for my tone or words.
As another note, all my characters and settings have been custom-built for this tournament. All of my characters have been built not only to create a good opportunity for fighting, but a reason for the fight to take place. Of any of them, the only one likely to see re-use is Unnamed, as he is not really tied to his battlefield, cannot die, has reason to fight almost anyone (he's a puritanical bastard - like a Sheik Hilali or Cardinal Pell with powers), and I've only shown a tiny tiny fraction of his power.
I am slightly annoyed that I'm now going to have to turn my big final round idea into something ... pedestrian, though.
Wyborn, Selene, MM, any possible battles with you will have to wait for a fair while. I have a large backlog of work which I am going to have to go breakneck speed to beat. I have uninstalled all my games and removed myself from most online communities I am in in preperation for this. My participation in VGF will be limited to this chat topic, the actual final round if I make it that far, and possibly any PMs I recieve. (I might check the topics that HotD made about her trip too - I may be overworked, but I'm still a curious man
)
In addition, I have a hard-and-fast deadline of the 20th of this month due to another seperate issue. After this date, I will not be able to visit VGF for several weeks, let alone write stories. Assuming that I advance, and the tournament lasts a week, it would be best if everything could be well started by the 12th. So the longer things drag out here with the judging, the higher probability it comes to me advancing but being unable to compete in the final section.
As for the inactive judges, I did a bit of interweb-stalking, and the results are as below:
t3hDarkness t3hDarkness is offline
Senior Member
Last Activity: 09-01-2007 09:32 AM
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NintendoGod NintendoGod is offline
Senior Member
Last Activity: Today 09:17 AM
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HotD:
forums/search.php?searchid=160870
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t3hDarkness is truly missing in action, if anyone with AIM access to him could contact him that would be great. NG is clearly online and reading this topic, what with the thanking posts and all, but I'm still not sure what is going on with his judging. Missy's judging we can expect to be a couple of days yet, considering she's just gotten back from an international trip of mystery.
In summary: My little penguin always faces due south.
...
Well, I have to say this wasn't the result I was expecting.
I came here for a skill based contest.
What I got was what I shall dub "The Damage Challenge": simply say that you do more damage than your opponent. Also, make sure you're the one to make the final post, so you can ensure your damage total comes out on top.
I did of course, read the rules, but to me they seemed a set of constructs to direct the stories and provide structure. The chief element missing there is a vision, a directive to those new to the board as to what your aim should be when writing in any topic here.
So, lacking a directive, I synthesised it - reverse-engineered it from the surrounding text in the forum. Without any further information, I reasoned that the NLBFT was a skill-based tourney, for how else could it be done?
It's sad that my logic that arrived at the correct conclusion did not provide me the right conclusion.
That a tourney could even be partly decided by who declares that they hit the opponent more makes my mouth curl south. In the end, whatever portion of the score allocated to damage done will be a broken proportion, a proportion awarded to those who do not keep consistency, who ignore their opponent, who simply follow the optimal strategy I mentioned in my last post.
So for as long as the BF and the NLBFT function that way, I will end my participation after I am done with number 11.
I am, however, at least mildly interested in battling with you now, Wyborn. Maybe. I am also very interested in this proposed tournament of yours, and would appreciate a PM when/if you ever set it up.
It should be noted I am not proposing removing the fighting from the Battlefield. There should be stories about fighting here, of course. What I am proposing is moving to stories about fighting, rather than descriptions of attacks. I also think that as long as the NLBFT is judged (even partially) on how much damage a person says they do, then the tournament is fundamentally broken.
I make no apologies for my tone or words.
As another note, all my characters and settings have been custom-built for this tournament. All of my characters have been built not only to create a good opportunity for fighting, but a reason for the fight to take place. Of any of them, the only one likely to see re-use is Unnamed, as he is not really tied to his battlefield, cannot die, has reason to fight almost anyone (he's a puritanical bastard - like a Sheik Hilali or Cardinal Pell with powers), and I've only shown a tiny tiny fraction of his power.
I am slightly annoyed that I'm now going to have to turn my big final round idea into something ... pedestrian, though.
Wyborn, Selene, MM, any possible battles with you will have to wait for a fair while. I have a large backlog of work which I am going to have to go breakneck speed to beat. I have uninstalled all my games and removed myself from most online communities I am in in preperation for this. My participation in VGF will be limited to this chat topic, the actual final round if I make it that far, and possibly any PMs I recieve. (I might check the topics that HotD made about her trip too - I may be overworked, but I'm still a curious man
)In addition, I have a hard-and-fast deadline of the 20th of this month due to another seperate issue. After this date, I will not be able to visit VGF for several weeks, let alone write stories. Assuming that I advance, and the tournament lasts a week, it would be best if everything could be well started by the 12th. So the longer things drag out here with the judging, the higher probability it comes to me advancing but being unable to compete in the final section.
As for the inactive judges, I did a bit of interweb-stalking, and the results are as below:
t3hDarkness t3hDarkness is offline
Senior Member
Last Activity: 09-01-2007 09:32 AM
----
NintendoGod NintendoGod is offline
Senior Member
Last Activity: Today 09:17 AM
----
HotD:
forums/search.php?searchid=160870
----
t3hDarkness is truly missing in action, if anyone with AIM access to him could contact him that would be great. NG is clearly online and reading this topic, what with the thanking posts and all, but I'm still not sure what is going on with his judging. Missy's judging we can expect to be a couple of days yet, considering she's just gotten back from an international trip of mystery.
In summary: My little penguin always faces due south.
Why is it drug addicts and computer afficionados are both called users?
-Clifford Stoll
-Clifford Stoll
-
Wyborn
- Member
- Posts: 12269
- Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2000 1:00 am
- Location: All over the place
Oh, bitter irony!
I guess we'll see how it goes, if you show me that you can make the experience fun rather than merely stimulating.
And yet, weirdly enough, the tone (or, rather, the content) of your last post decreased my own desire - far more than anything you've leveled at me personally.Kargath wrote: I am, however, at least mildly interested in battling with you now, Wyborn.
I guess we'll see how it goes, if you show me that you can make the experience fun rather than merely stimulating.
Help me out with the best fanfiction ever, Ganondorf Beats Up EVERYONE! You decide who gets beaten!
For the battle-minded and mathematically inclined, there's the Hyrulian War, a revived time-honored tradition!
For the battle-minded and mathematically inclined, there's the Hyrulian War, a revived time-honored tradition!