Man, I suck at wavedashing...

[SkyDragon]

CaptHayfever, if you think wavedashing is pointless I will gladly take it outside of these forums, right now I'm just discussing why it's useful.

Beating 3 level 9 computers is a small accomplishment...
I was able to beat 3 level nine computers on a team against me with me having a handicap of 1 and them having a handicap of 9, with 99 stock without taking any damage, it's a matter of exploiting their flaws.
If I were you, Shadowking, I wouldn't "brag" (you have nothing to brag about, really), because anyone who plays CPUs at this point is pathetic.
As soon as the game came out people began exploiting the flaws of CPUs only days after the actual release.

[Dee Emm]

The only VGFer the right to brag about SSBM is Roy10.

[SkyDragon]

Well, then answer me this: Do you Shorthop, fastfall, lcancel your aerials?

[Dee Emm]

Originally posted by CaptHayfever:
^We have a win--actually, no. Just no.

Damn, so close.

[SkyDragon]

SHFFLing(shorthop, fastfall, lcancel) your aerials is the best and fastest way to use them, if you play with items you leave out the most important part of the game SKILL, good luck beating any decent player with that kind of practice.

[imported_Cravdraa]

^ [img]graemlins/lol.gif[/img]

[SkyDragon]

Yeah, if you're laughing you obviously don't SHFFL your aerials and you probably play with heart containers which are banned from all tournaments, even those which have items on low or very low (west cost US), the tourneys at the east cost generally don't have any sort of items on.

[imported_Cravdraa]

OMG TEH TURNY!!!!

[img]graemlins/lol.gif[/img]
I'm laughing because you're the very definition of the typical SSB:M know-it-all (usually come from Gamefaqs, but not always) that likes to brag about how good they are.

First off, Don't brag about things that you can't back up. Nobody is going to believe you.

Second, Bragging about combos is stupid. Any real SSB:M player knows how to both break and avoid them. Not to say they're worthless, but they're far from a deciding factor. Let's face it, if you get hit by the same combo twice you deserve to lose.

Third, saying that items take away skill? That's the one of the ultimate signs of a newbie that just likes to talk big. Of course there are a few items that cross the line into cheap, (hearts, stars, pokeballs, hammers, etc...) but other than that, items are merely an enhancment of what's already there. When an item apears you have the struggle to get it, which rarely comes down to who's the closest in an even match (besides, most decent players can tell you the places items appear so if you miss out it's you own fault). There are all kinds of stratigies you can use to slow someone up. A player isn't really geting much use out of an item if they get smashed as soon as they grab it, now are they?

Once the power struggle is over, and someone actually gets the item, how well they actually use it goes into play. It takes just as much skill to use an item effectively as it does to fight barehanded and many items are weilded in slightly different ways by different characters, not to mention that most can be used in more than one way. And while the guy with the weapon is figuring out what to do with it, the unarmed guy should be planning what to do next too. His job is to decide what the best way to disarm the other player is or how to exploit that item's weakness (which all items besides those listed above have). Maybe he doesn't even want the other player to drop it. (I've had my fair share of matchs where I've realized that an enemy is far less dangerous with an item that without one.) And so I think any rational person can see that items don't remove skill, they add a whole new dimension to it. One that only the truely skillful can make use of.

But oops... I forgot. Your the expert so you knew all of that already.

[ April 24, 2004, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: Cravdraa ]

[imported_Cravdraa]

^ I know, I was just generalizing. If I'd gone into specifics about each item that last post could've easily been 3x as long.

Edit: ack! Typos.

[ April 24, 2004, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: Cravdraa ]

[SkyDragon]

Originally posted by Cravdraa:
OMG TEH TURNY!!!!

[img]graemlins/lol.gif[/img]
I'm laughing because you're the very definition of the typical SSB:M know-it-all (usually come from Gamefaqs, but not always) that likes to brag about how good they are.

HAHAHAHAHA, it's funny, because I am thinking of something similar about you, I mean people from GFAQs are idiots without any real skill who stumbled upon the discussions of players from smashboards, and to me your resemble one of them(GFAQers).
I don't know everything about SSBM, and I doubt there's a person on this planet who does, I'd like you to point out though WHERE THE HELL in my posts I bragged about how good I am. I never did! However, there are other certain people who brag about playing a non-wavedashing luigi and think they're "Number one", they just make me laugh. [img]graemlins/lol.gif[/img]

First off, Don't brag about things that you can't back up. Nobody is going to believe you.

Bragging, blah, blah, blah... I have facts to back up what I say, all you have is a bunch of hot air, take a chill pill dude.

Second, Bragging about combos is stupid. Any real SSB:M player knows how to both break and avoid them. Not to say they're worthless, but they're far from a deciding factor. Let's face it, if you get hit by the same combo twice you deserve to lose.

You're still stuck on bragging? Come on, someone give this kid a lollipop.
You know it's funny how you're calling combos useless and completely avoidable, could that be because you can't combo?!? *GASP* Or maybe you play all day against n00bs whose idea of a combo is using bowser's flame breath.
Do I brag about combos? I am talking about smashboarders, for whom SSBM ceised to be a party game a long time ago, so they started devising different ways to combo. Gee, I wonder what's easier to avoid, a falcon who's dashdancing and about to start virtually any combo in his arsenal, or a falcon who throws out random falcon kicks *rolls eyes*....And yes, you can get in the same combo twice, or virtually any number of times, it's impossible to play complete defense and avoid every move, unless you're playing against a n00b who has no mindgame potential.

Third, saying that items take away skill? That's the one of the ultimate signs of a newbie that just likes to talk big. Of course there are a few items that cross the line into cheap, (hearts, stars, pokeballs, hammers, etc...) but other than that, items are merely an enhancment of what's already there. When an item apears you have the struggle to get it, which rarely comes down to who's the closest in an even match (besides, most decent players can tell you the places items appear so if you miss out it's you own fault). There are all kinds of stratigies you can use to slow someone up. A player isn't really geting much use out of an item if they get smashed as soon as they grab it, now are they?

I never got into the specifics of items, except for when I mentioned the heart container, yes, it is a broken item and requires no skill. Here's two more broken items for you: maxim tomatoes and starmans...OH no, are you gonna B1TC|-| at me three times as much now for bragging?
There are item debates on smash boards, you know, the west cost prefers few items on, to prevent camping, east coast argues that items shouldn't be on, because of random explosions, spawning, etc.

Once the power struggle is over, and someone actually gets the item, how well they actually use it goes into play. It takes just as much skill to use an item effectively as it does to fight barehanded and many items are weilded in slightly different ways by different characters, not to mention that most can be used in more than one way. And while the guy with the weapon is figuring out what to do with it, the unarmed guy should be planning what to do next too. His job is to decide what the best way to disarm the other player is or how to exploit that item's weakness (which all items besides those listed above have). Maybe he doesn't even want the other player to drop it. (I've had my fair share of matchs where I've realized that an enemy is far less dangerous with an item that without one.) And so I think any rational person can see that items don't remove skill, they add a whole new dimension to it. One that only the truely skillful can make use of.

But oops... I forgot. Your the expert so you knew all of that already.

OH MY GOD, DISARM THEM? YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!?!?!!!!!!1111 WHAT A GENIUS IDEA!!!
WATCH OUT THERE'S A NEWBIE FALCO WITH A RAY GUN...I MEAN IT MUST BE WAY MORE EFFECTIVE THAN HIS SHORTHOP LASER...
First master the character, not the way they use items, because you will be playing with the character for the majority of the match, not with the items,which provide no reliable strategies.

[ April 24, 2004, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Firebolt THE Tormentor ]

[imported_Cravdraa]

Fine, so you want to play the quote game? Okay sure!

HAHAHAHAHA, it's funny, because I am thinking of something similar about you, I mean people from GFAQs are idiots without any real skill who stumbled upon the discussions of players from smashboards, and to me your resemble one of them(GFAQers).
I don't know everything about SSBM, and I doubt there's a person on this planet who does, I'd like you to point out though WHERE THE HELL in my posts I bragged about how good I am. I never did! However, there are other certain people who brag about playing a non-wavedashing luigi and think they're "Number one", they just make me laugh.

At least we have something we can agree upon. Buuuut...

I was able to beat 3 level nine computers on a team against me with me having a handicap of 1 and them having a handicap of 9, with 99 stock without taking any damage, it's a matter of exploiting their flaws

hmmm. Sounds like bragging to me.

I have facts to back up what I say, all you have is a bunch of hot air, take a chill pill dude.

And yet you've shown nothing while I've clearly explained each and every one of my points... What's wrong with this picture?

You're still stuck on bragging? Come on, someone give this kid a lollipop.
You know it's funny how you're calling combos useless and completely avoidable, could that be because you can't combo?!? *GASP* Or maybe you play all day against n00bs whose idea of a combo is using bowser's flame breath.
Do I brag about combos? I am talking about smashboarders, for whom SSBM ceised to be a party game a long time ago, so they started devising different ways to combo. Gee, I wonder what's easier to avoid, a falcon who's dashdancing and about to start virtually any combo in his arsenal, or a falcon who throws out random falcon kicks *rolls eyes*....And yes, you can get in the same combo twice, or virtually any number of times, it's impossible to play complete defense and avoid every move, unless you're playing against a n00b who has no mindgame potential.

Oh, I'm sorry. Maybe I should have said you're in love with the consept of them? If I've seen it once, I know what's coming. I make a note on how to counter it. It's called learning from experience. It's a rule that holds true for everything in life. I'll also point out that I never said they were useless, just not as important as you'd obviously like to think.

Skipping the part where you rave like a lunatic...

I never got into the specifics of items, except for when I mentioned the heart container, yes, it is a broken item and requires no skill. Here's two more broken items for you: maxim tomatoes and starmans...

gee, I thought I was refering to the part where you stated they made the game pure luck... Here's a refresher since you don't remember.

if you play with items you leave out the most important part of the game SKILL

Not to mention that I already said that so items can be cheap. But apparently you forgot that too, seeing as you missed the partial list I made of the offending items.

First master the character, not the way they use items, because you will be playing with the character for the majority of the match, not with the items,which provide no reliable strategies.

The item use is part of the character. If you can find a use for every move your character has that's good. If you can find 3 uses even better. But the exact same thing holds true for items. No reliable stratigies? That's either denial, ignorance, or a joke. Most items can be used in at least two ways. Most many more than that. And as stated before, many effect the different characters differently. Often times this balances out what would otherwise be seen as weaknesses in said characters. It's true that you can't depend on a particular item to win you a match, but as I'm sure you know that holds true to attacks and combos as well. But if you know how to best make use of them when they come around, whether you're the one with the item or not, well then you have something there. And if you know how to use an item in a way that the other characters can't... Well, then you have a clear advantage that has nothing to do with luck. Now try adding in how they react against each other.

Items are just another way to excel with your character and deepen your strategy. For some people this new layer is too much for them to take into account, so they need to remove it. Ask yourself any number of senarios... Who has the fastest swing with a beam sword? Who has the slowest? What angle does it come in at? Is it more or less powerful than their normal attack and what's the recovery time? How about reach? What moves does it take priority over? That's not even half the questions that can be asked about just one item and yet you can see all the things it changes. Now try adding them all in (or at least the non-cheap ones) and see if you can tell what's going to happen. Can you honestly say you still don't see how they add strategy to any given situation? They don't remove skill, they multiply it.

[ April 24, 2004, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: Cravdraa ]

[SkyDragon]

Originally posted by Cravdraa:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I was able to beat 3 level nine computers on a team against me with me having a handicap of 1 and them having a handicap of 9, with 99 stock without taking any damage, it's a matter of exploiting their flaws

hmmm. Sounds like bragging to me. </font>[/QUOTE]I was giving an example of what any half-wit should be able to do once they learn how to exploit CPU flaws, "I" could have easily been replaced by virtually any name from smashboards, I don't know about the GFAQers though, they seem quarter-wittish to me. I posted a so-called "brag", yet you mentioned "bragging" like 4 times in your post.
Fine! want an examle of the simplest strategy that exploits CPU flaws in such a matchup? Well, use a jigglypuff against the 3 ganondorf CPUs and fake them out into using ^B at the edge of the stage so they self-destruct, I was hoping that it wouldn't come to this(me explaining the strategy), but surely you must have more intelligence than GameFAQers...

And yet you've shown nothing while I've clearly explained each and every one of my points... What's wrong with this picture?

What's wrong with this picture is that it's taking place over the VGF forums, that's what's wrong, so let's take it out and over AIM, shall we?

Oh, I'm sorry. Maybe I should have said you're in love with the consept of them? If I've seen it once, I know what's coming. I make a note on how to counter it. It's called learning from experience. It's a rule that holds true for everything in life. I'll also point out that I never said they were useless, just not as important as you'd obviously like to think.

Skipping the part where you rave like a lunatic... < it certainly doesn't look to me like that face understands creative sarcasm meant to mock its sad life

Not all combos can be successfully avoided, and since you play against n00bs all the time all you can expect from them are the same moves over and over and over again in a given situation...
If you're ever lucky enough to take your game up a notch in SSBM, you'll see that a formidable opponent plays a mind game with you, so you can't expect the same move in a situation where you can easily counter it, instead your opponent will mix up all sorts of things, which can be successfully implemented with powerful mindgame tools such as wavedashing, dashdancing, and any form of fakeout that they can come up with.

gee, I thought I was refering to the part where you stated they made the game pure luck... Here's a refresher since you don't remember.

Not to mention that I already said that so items can be cheap. But apparently you forgot that too, seeing as you missed the partial list I made of the offending items.

Gee, Chavdraa is having the best damn luck of his life in SSBM today, a crate fell on him at a random location and exploded, killing him.
There's a set list of "cheap" items, but I feel that I'm gonna get 100fold of your insolent rambling if I post it here...

The item use is part of the character.*insert Blah, Blah, Blahs here*They don't remove skill, they multiply it.

I feel as if we're getting into the item debate, where you take the side of the West coast, while I take the side of the East coast. (GET A CLUE, LET'S TAKE THIS SOMEWHERE ELSE, *COUGH* AIM *COUGH*)

[ April 25, 2004, 12:15 AM: Message edited by: Firebolt THE Tormentor ]

[imported_Cravdraa]

*shrug* I really don't see why it should matter, seeing as this is a SSB forum. Why the sudden rush to take this off the forums? It can really use all the activity it can get. VGF loves this sort of discussion. Maybe because you've been unable to turn aside a single one of my points and you're feeling the pressure. Or maybe you just don't want to talk about it...
But whatever, if you care enough to discuss this on AIM, you can feel free to contact me at any time. At any rate, I'll be brief.

Gee, Chavdraa is having the best damn luck of his life in SSBM today, a crate fell on him at a random location and exploded, killing him.
There's a set list of "cheap" items, but I feel that I'm gonna get 100fold of your insolent rambling if I post it here...

That would be why it's not wise to stand under preset item locations.
And just who made this "set" list? People that share your opinions no doubt. Sorry, but opinions are just that. Just because a group of people agree on something doesn't make it true.

Honestly, it sounds to me like you're the one that needs to up your game. Unable to grasp the simple concept of strategic item use. Obsessed with trival techniques like wavedashing. And Quite presumptuous, I might add. You'd like to assume that I don't know what I'm talking about, or that my opponents are newbies, but the fact is that I know all about these things you seem so fond of going on about. I just don't agree with it.

[ April 25, 2004, 01:45 AM: Message edited by: Cravdraa ]