If Our Sons Were Treated Like Our Daughters

[Random User]

IRHP, I am thinking you don't understand the effect of media on the social structure of society. Things like being "hideous" are defined by the very media you feel has no effect on anyone's social standings.

I do agree that someone would do well to present solutions, though. Maybe if there were a wider selection of protagonists and traits in these protagonists the problem would not persist so much as children would learn at a developmental age that it's okay to be "flawed" in some way. Who's to say, though.

[Apiary Tazy]

Disney's female main characters were never made to be role models for girls. A marketing team used the popularity of past characters to make them "role models".

Disney Princess was always garbage and always will be garbage. It's not popular because it's good, it's popular because everything around it is good. Also, there's... like three actual princesses in there. Like REAL princesses. Not even bending the rules for it.

snip

also snip

Don't most of these magazines perpetuate the same dull garbage endlessly? Best ways to lose weight, have sex, and how Obama did all the white collar crimes?

:I

There's not a lot to say. If you can present a good character it doesn't matter what they look like. Should we have more well-made female characters with different body types? Yes. We shouldn't be afraid of having different male characters either. But I don't think we should be making stories with the goal of creating a role model. People will notice when you do that and it feels forced every time.

Do you mean in real life? If so, where the manual you're reading from? Because I call bull. Women can have nearly any shape and men will chase. Men are actually screwed if they're too short or too fat or too ugly. Women? The old gratuitous saying I've heard time and time again, "A hole's a hole" comes to mind. There is no such allowance for men, and this is all speaking in general, of course.

You know, I get this feeling that some of the people in this topic are focusing too much on the negative aspects of female portrayal while you focus on the male portrayal. So, really it's just bad for everyone and it's only ok because it's the ideal healthy body. That's the long and short of it. There's a lot of other factors but there's a reason we're attracted to the naked human body.

I asked before if we should make character hideous, and UN said no. She just said "relatable." But what is relatable? What if you are hideous, like plenty of people are? Your "relatable" will probably still be a beauty standard enforced upon them. If we're going to go on a scale, where right now model portrayals are 10s, what do we drop it to? 5? Will that really help? Those ones, two, and threes are still going to feel like how you guys argue everyone else feels right now. So the only logical solution is to bring everyone down to 1s in media to make everyone feel warm and fuzzy inside. But is that fair to the 1s? Exploit them to make everyone above 1 but below 10 feel great? Maybe just get rid of it all entirely, ban portrayals period.

Human. I think they should be more human. With a wide range of emotions that makes a character believable. It's like Batman from Bruce Timm's animated series. You know the one from the 90's? He wasn't just some hero that ran through the night and dispensed bad guys by scaring them. There were whole episodes dedicated to his problems. Putting up his facade as Bruce Wayne, how he eventually wants to stop being Batman altogether, there's even episodes that portray how close he is to the bad guys he captures. That's why this series was so good. The characters had many facets. Not just one, and the series took time to flesh these out.

First of all, "countless?" I disagree, that's rare. And talk about male fantasy, lol, He-Man isn't the male fantasy like feminists say, it's the weak fat, nerdy, guy getting the hot chick, that's the "male fantasy." It's unrealistic and only serves to make socially-deemed inadequate people feel better about themselves and those stories were almost exclusively written by men, whereas the Edward vampire types are written by women as often as men.

[...]

Of course we hardly see the opposite, that's not a female fantasy. Fat, nerdy, weak men DO have problems getting women, much more than a fat, nerdy, weak woman would have getting a man. They don't need to write stories about it as fantasy, it's already reality.

I feel these examples are rarely played out all that well and are swiftly forgotten. But sure there are many of both examples.

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

[QUOTE="Revenant User, post: 1537641, member: 35827"]IRHP, I am thinking you don't understand the effect of media on the social structure of society. Things like being "hideous" are defined by the very media you feel has no effect on anyone's social standings.[/quote]

To what extent are you suggesting media effects society, can you define the parameters?

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder," we just mostly happen to have very similar "eyes." Anyway, being hideous existed well before media as we know it. Don't act like everyone is brainwashed into following what the media presents.

[Quote=Revenant User]I do agree that someone would do well to present solutions, though. Maybe if there were a wider selection of protagonists and traits in these protagonists the problem would not persist so much as children would learn at a developmental age that it's okay to be "flawed" in some way. Who's to say, though.[/QUOTE]

So if I'm making a game, should I be forced or pressured into diversifying the cast? Is that your solution? Constrain creativity? Put a character in a wheel chair or tack on some extra pounds, maybe give the main character a crooked nose or big ears just cuz?

If someone decides to diversify, excellent, that would be refreshing if it matches the story somehow (fat Nathan Drake would be a joke; actually, it is.). I just don't want a loud minority bullying everyone and dictating anything just for no measurable gain, just SJWs SJW-ing.

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

You know, I get this feeling that some of the people in this topic are focusing too much on the negative aspects of female portrayal while you focus on the male portrayal. So, really it's just bad for everyone and it's only ok because it's the ideal healthy body. That's the long and short of it. There's a lot of other factors but there's a reason we're attracted to the naked human body.

It just never makes sense to me when people think something that is affecting people is bad but only focus on one type of person affected by it. Its like saying how bad the Holocaust was for women.

many[/i] facets. Not just one, and the series took time to flesh these out.

I agree. I think we have lots of good characters though, and as you said, "If you can present a good character it doesn't matter what they look like." That's my philosophy right there. There's so many games and anime I love and it literally doesn't matter what the character's appearance is (as long as they are well designed).

Probably.

[United Nations]

I'll just drop these here.

Superheroes with hearing aids and cochlear implants inspire children who are bullied in school.

Child with disability feels he can relate to Hawkeye.

Children prefer dolls that look more like them.

Woman remakes Bratz dolls

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

^ But are superheroes with hearing aids cool? Probably not. I think it's great if people want to make media for specific people though, that's really cool and I hope they enjoy it.

[United Nations]

Daredevil is blind and he's super cool.

[Calamity Panfan]

real talk daredevil is one of the raddest superheroes. he's mad underrated

[LOOT]

lmao if you honestly are terrible at creating diversity in your own work that says something about you not these boogeyme-I mean SJWs that seem to haunt you

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

I'm not arguing disabilities ruin characters, obviously:

[DOUBLEPOST=1434001230,1434001160][/DOUBLEPOST]^ Diversity is simply unnecessary. A group of all SWM characters isn't a death sentence for media, Loot, believe it or not.

[Deepfake]

^ Inversely if you're that blase about it there's absolutely no reason to be opposed to diversity. Double edged knife there, bucko.

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

Diversity is fine if it occurs naturally. I don't like SJWs forcing it.

DBZ again, Yajirobe is fat, Roshi is old, Pan is female, Future Gohan is physically disabled and they're all awesome. Why? Because they were designed to be, they weren't designed as "female" or "fat" but just cool characters who happen to be that way. Nobody pressured Toriyama into it, nobody said "Hey, we need some different races, gotta diversify, so make Uub Indian."

God I am really trying to explain myself but I guess I really DO suck at it or you guys just aren't getting it. Maybe another example, a non-DBZ one this time; back to Disney Princesses. Tiana, the black one, she wasn't made to diversify, she was designed black "simply as a result of the location in which the story takes place."

THAT is how it's done, ladies and gentleman.

Okay, I gave examples of good diversity, I should point out a bad one; FIFA 16. EA simply added female teams due to the vocal minority's pressure.

Anyway, that's my view.

[Kil'jaeden]

[QUOTE="Revenant User, post: 1537641, member: 35827"]IRHP, I am thinking you don't understand the effect of media on the social structure of society. Things like being "hideous" are defined by the very media you feel has no effect on anyone's social standings.[/QUOTE]

It is all defined by the media? I disagree. We have standards that go much deeper than simple media or social influence.

[Deepfake]

[QUOTE="I REALLY HATE POKEMON!, post: 1537687, member: 18119"]
Okay, I gave examples of good diversity, I should point out a bad one; FIFA 16. EA simply added female teams due to the vocal minority's pressure.

Anyway, that's my view.[/QUOTE]
The women's teams are a huge part of football that they were missing. It's disrespectful to exclude them. What you don't seem to get is that people have been going out of their way to prevent more diversity "because it won't sell" in part because of the expectations lack of diversity have enforced. You have to recognise both sides of the coin.

Beyond that, yeah, the whole saturday morning cartoon Captain Planet thing is bogus, but nobody's talking about that. One of the problems with storytelling in the games industry and why it hasn't matured more is entirely down to decent developers and writers being restricted by marketing logic which says they have to write Gritty McGriterson and so on. There are plenty of white male characters adored by everyone, but for each of them there's another 3 dishonest ones or simply missed opportunities for better dynamics. I know you're not really heavily into the writing scene or anything like that, so I'll definitely give you a pass on not thinking of it first.

I think the point of contention isn't just that diversity can be artificial, it's that a lack of it is forced not only on audiences but also on developers. At some point you have to understand that people aren't just communicating a lack of the industry, they're communicating that the industry as a whole is trying to create an identical product in multiple iterations and that just doesn't work. It's not just a thing someone's asking for because they're butthurt, it's an obvious flaw in the writing.

I do think simply pressuring devs is the wrong way to go about this. As the risk and costs inherent to developing games drop over time, we'll see more 'risk taking' and more diverse ideas. These are the growing pains of new technology, that much is obvious. 20 years ago we wouldn't have had this problem because everyone was still making animal-themed platformers with sentient kitchen appliances and stuff. What's bizarre is that companies like Nintendo seem to be the only ones who really remember that still sells just as well and skips the controversy.

[Random User]

To what extent are you suggesting media effects society, can you define the parameters?

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder," we just mostly happen to have very similar "eyes." Anyway, being hideous existed well before media as we know it. Don't act like everyone is brainwashed into following what the media presents.

Beauty before was typically defined by other matters - i.e. being fat used to portray wealth, and generally chubbier women were often seen as preferred since they were better for birthing children, etc. The rise of media, somewhere along the way, changed these definitions, and the general public follows it because it's what is popular.

As far as the media influencing society - well, you're using the internet now, aren't you? The internet has changed the course of the entire world and how we conduct business and socialise. This is probably why the ideas of acceptance and equality have been a larger concern to people. They have platforms to communicate in a manner impossible only a few decades ago. Television is still one of the most popular things on the planet, and a lot of people draw their opinions and receive news through television. If it's on TV, a lot of people will care, and if something is portrayed as inherently better, a lot of people will want to be like that.

So if I'm making a game, should I be forced or pressured into diversifying the cast? Is that your solution? Constrain creativity? Put a character in a wheel chair or tack on some extra pounds, maybe give the main character a crooked nose or big ears just cuz?

If someone decides to diversify, excellent, that would be refreshing if it matches the story somehow (fat Nathan Drake would be a joke; actually, it is.). I just don't want a loud minority bullying everyone and dictating anything just for no measurable gain, just SJWs SJW-ing.

No one would be forcing you as a game developer to do anything outside of what you'd like. If you think that trying to design characters a bit more diverse goes against your game's message or plot, then that's absolutely fine. Game developers do often look to what people want, though. And if people are calling for more diversity, they'll probably take that into consideration.

And before you start explaining to me how game developers shouldn't have to listen to criticism from people that would like diversity (as you have before), let me tell you that that is a silly stance to take, and kind of devalues those people as less than you.

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

The women's teams are a huge part of football that they were missing. It's disrespectful to exclude them. What you don't seem to get is that people have been going out of their way to prevent more diversity "because it won't sell" in part because of the expectations lack of diversity have enforced. You have to recognise both sides of the coin.

From a game perspective, though, there are reasons developers have for not including women in some of their games:

That was a quote regarding Ubisoft's Assassin's Creed.

This is a primary argument against the inclusion of females in certain games (especially ones where females aren't even the target audience of their games anyway). Personally it makes sense to me. Why double the work just to include women when resources can go toward actually making the game better? Playing as women doesn't make the game inherently better.

It depends on what games you're playing. Primarily story based games like Quantic Dreams and Telltale are prime examples of a matured industry. We will always have the lesser stories in games (usually ones based more around gameplay), but that doesn't take away from gaming any more than crappy movies take from film.

Can you be more specific in how it's a flaw? Heavy Rain had a primarily white cast and was very well written according to many people, and I think so as well. Is diversity really necessary? It doesn't hurt but it doesn't always help, either. At worst it can become a bit boring, but there's too many drama queens, I think.

And that's all fine and well, they should look at what people want (notably those actually planning on playing the game, not just policing media) and also take it into consideration. If people request, consideration will usually be taken. Pressuring isn't requesting though, and that's more specifically what I am against. It's just plain bullying.

It's a free country.

[Random User]

I don't follow. What's your point? Basically that now we have the Internet and TV and so our opinions are decided for us? Maybe the fool masses, I just don't see media having such a vast influence on intelligent people, that's just my opinion.

I don't understand why you tend to jump to the extreme conclusion from what I am saying. Our opinions aren't decided for us, in such a direct manner. Internet and TV strongly influence our society's depiction of what is desirable.

And that's all fine and well, they should look at what people want (notably those actually planning on playing the game, not just policing media) and also take it into consideration. If people request, consideration will usually be taken. Pressuring isn't requesting though, and that's more specifically what I am against. It's just plain bullying.

A lot of users here seem to be for the idea of diversity in video games. A lot of users here also play video games.

[LOOT]

oh my god it's so hard to animate skeletons -has no experience in computer animation at all-

-sees Nintendo has more playable women in Smash than all of the rest of E3 last year- wow these sjws are invading so much what happened to the good old days too much diversity

[ScottyMcGee]

[QUOTE="ScottyMcGee, post: 1537584, member: 31048"]Countless shows, movies and books are about weak nerdy guys or fat guys who still get the hot slim girl regardless of how they look. [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE="I REALLY HATE POKEMON!, post: 1537617, member: 18119"]

First of all, "countless?" I disagree, that's rare.[/QUOTE]


Doctor Who, Episode 11 of the Fifth Series of the modern revival "The Lodger" - Craig Owens, an overweight goofball, gets the girl of his dreams with the help of The Doctor.

Peter Parker's awkwardness has always been adorable for Gwen and Mary Jane.

Jim and Cheryl from According to Jim

Doug and Carrie from King of Queens

Ralph and Alice from The Honeymooners (This was the one that kind of started the trope for sitcom)

Can't Buy Me Love

Fast Times at Ridgemont High

Knocked Up

Revenge of the Nerds

Superbad

There's Something About Mary

I Love You, Beth Cooper...

Weird Science

Clueless

She's Out of My League

The Sorcerer's Apprentice

American Pie

Heck, when I was growing up as a teen writing my first stories I fell into this trope TWICE. The first short story I ever wrote was about a guy who had trouble gaining muscle but then realized his hot girlfriend loves him the way he is anyway. Another was about a geeky, lanky guy who worked at a movie theater and still got to bang this hot girl who frequented the theater.

So





Want me to keep going?

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

I don't understand why you tend to jump to the extreme conclusion from what I am saying. Our opinions aren't decided for us, in such a direct manner. Internet and TV strongly influence our society's depiction of what is desirable.

How strongly? Remember Jack Thompson? Do you think video games make people kill, too? Or does it only influence us when it's pretty people being impossibly perfect?

[/DOUBLEPOST]

See you in infinity.