If Our Sons Were Treated Like Our Daughters

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

[QUOTE="Revenant User, post: 1537262, member: 35827"]It's not that it's fiction, really, it's just media in general that portrays this perfect being that you have to become.[/quote]

...I do? Well ****, I didn't get the memo...

[QUOTE=Revenant User]And the problem wasn't whether or not I cared about being tough. Everyone else cared, because it meant they got to either push me around or degrade me. I wasn't born a cynic. Disney Princesses, Barbie, models on magazine covers. They're all the same to little girls - who they are supposed to strive to be and role models. And if they don't make the cut, everyone else will pin them as someone to avoid or harass. There will be some who don't care about looking perfect, and I applaud that. Unfortunately it means they'll probably get the same raw deal I did, though, because most people do care.[/QUOTE]

So the problem was that "everyone" else cared. Are we the thought police? Never mind that, it just sounds like they were bullies for pushing you around and if it wasn't for one reason it'd be another or if it weren't you it'd be someone else. Bullies gon' bully.

That Disney Princess thing irks me, I proved they aren't all perfect, nor even human, but that aside, Barbie is literally an exaggeration of nigh impossible human form; almost no natural person can match Barbie's proportions from what I hear, so just how is anyone supposed to live up to impossible standards? If they don't make the impossible cut then "everyone" will harass them? But obviously the harassers didn't live up to it either, this unspoken standard you think exists thanks to Barbie, because it's impossible. Doesn't make much sense.

Now, the models on magazine covers, what little kid is looking at that as a role model? Even if they are, I don't see why the parents allow it That aside, what do you suggest? Get some anti-models up there for balance? Enforce a strict 5's-only modeling law? Abolish modeling, period (wouldn't mind this one)? It just sounds like people are jealous. It shouldn't have an impact on anyone if someone else is a certain way.

[Deepfake]

IRHP doesn't care about social pressure, thusly negating it for all humans round the globe. You can all rest safe.

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

I searched "Disney Princess" and it was the first thing that came up. I don't know how you think Ariel is deformed. She's got hair that is perfect-looking underwater, a bikini that shows off her tiny waist and perky breasts, huge green eyes, and delicate little hands. Yeah, she has a tail, but I don't think that affects her beauty at all. I'm not saying they should have warts or 3rd degree burns but what about a normally shaped head or a realistically sized waist and proportions? Girls constantly compare themselves to these princesses so why not go the extra mile to make them relatable is all I'm saying.

You don't think half her body being fish affects her beauty at all? You must really look past people's physical issues, we should get together (do you look past bad personalities, too? I sure hope so).

Anyway, that tiny waist? That's an eating disorder. The hair isn't detailed enough to judge its quality aside from length and straightness. Her eyes look like she's tweaking, and her hands seem proportionate to her body. I see what you're saying but if we're really going to analyze her in depth then she isn't perfect. You'd see her ribs at that size, and her hands would be incredibly veiny, there's just not enough detail to see it.

Best solution seems to be to teach kids to differentiate between fiction and reality better, I suppose.

Also, Tinker Bell was in the Disney Princess line-up. I did my research.

Sure, I'm curious.

Beauty is pushed because of complex genetic issues. Everyone wants their genes to pass on so attractiveness is held in high regard. Attractive people do get what they want in life easier, too, sadly.

Bullies just like bullying. They'd kick your ass and call you Little Miss Perfect if you were perfect. That's people.

This is a sort of separate and unpopular opinion but I don't think we should praise anyone for anything but deeds alone.[DOUBLEPOST=1433867556,1433867520][/DOUBLEPOST]

Maybe we should teach others not to. We certainly can't combat it, Thought Police.

[United Nations]

...I feel like you are arguing similar things to me but still think you're arguing against me. For example: yes, Barbie dolls are an impossible standard. That's the point. Exactly, Ariel would be showing ribs and would have to have a serious bodily issue to be that skinny in reality. Yes, everyone wants their genes to pass on so attractiveness is emphasized.

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

[QUOTE="User Name, post: 1537293, member: 31164"]...I feel like you are arguing similar things to me but still think you're arguing against me. For example: yes, Barbie dolls are an impossible standard. That's the point. Exactly, Ariel would be showing ribs and would have to have a serious bodily issue to be that skinny in reality. Yes, everyone wants their genes to pass on so attractiveness is emphasized.[/QUOTE]

Barbies are impossible so what's there to live up to? I can't compete with **** Megatron, he's a car robot alien, I'm ****, that standard is shot to hell. You can't live up to the impossible so who is around to persecute those who don't? Others who couldn't? Make no sense.

And we're definitely agreeing on those others so I don't know why we're disagreeing either.

[ScottyMcGee]

I think what IRHP is trying to say is that he recognizes the flaws and impossibilities of these characters but then doesn't understand why people would put them as a realistic standard if we know they are impossible.

There was a study done a while ago where men and women described their ideal mate based solely on appearance, and they judged the attractiveness of mates based on several images. So they would show several different pictures of the same woman except there would be minute differences like a widow's peak or the width of the waist or etc etc. If I had the time I'd try to painstakingly try to look for this. But ultimately, men favored the shape of a woman THAT WASN'T EVEN PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE FOR A WOMAN. They actually found the "Barbie waist" size highly attractive when it's physically impossible to achieve that size. This is the power of social pressure in a particular culture. First of all, you may know that Barbie's size is impossible but not the drooling little kids playing with them. Secondly, in other aspects, even if you were to say "This is obviously fantasy" your mind still leans towards that ideal because everyone else enjoys that fantasy or is subconsciously treated to approve of that fantasy. The power of fiction over people is not that people are stupid or deranged or metally ill. Fiction has and always will have some emulation of real life - whether it be opinions or facts. Anyone who says "That's just fiction though" doesn't quite understand how fiction can affect culture in real life. A lot of these social pressure issues happen as children and adolescents. The mind of a child and an adolescent is incredibly impressionable. You may not care now since you grew up and you may not have even cared as a kid (in which case, whooptie-do, congratulations), but for most of the human race we try to imitate what's around us when we're young. We grow with a biological imperative to fit in, because humans are social mammals. There's nothing deranged about that - that's how humans work.

[RandomGuy]

I wish I were Megatron.

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

I think what IRHP is trying to say is that he recognizes the flaws and impossibilities of these characters but then doesn't understand why people would put them as a realistic standard if we know they are impossible.

Yeah, exactly. I'm not always good at explaining myself, but yes. To do so is illogical.

THAT WASN'T EVEN PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE FOR A WOMAN. [/i]They actually found the "Barbie waist" size highly attractive when it's physically impossible to achieve that size. This is the power of social pressure in a particular culture.

You're not taking several factors into account. First, men have wildly varying tastes in women, from all manner of possible to all manner of impossible. This is the Internet, go take a browse, friend. It's no surprise men would like Barbie, as it's no surprise men find ****** attractive despite looking even less like actual human beings, and men even are attracted to non-humans. This point is utterly useless, like saying "lots of men like chocolate." Okay? So? Trust me, plenty still like vanilla, strawberry and dirty gym socks covered in horse **** flavors, and even those who prefer chocolate will settle for the others (especially since if their flavor of choice isn't even possible to attain).

Second, what does it matter?

The drooling kids playing with Barbie don't know her size is impossible. Yeah. You can also add every other fantasy element to that list, seeing as kids don't know **** about anything at all. When they grow up they learn. I don't believe in Santa Claus anymore, y'know, same for Barbie and He-Man, we all learn. If we don't, we have bigger problems than impossible standards, IMO.

Imitating what's around us is fine, but once you realize you can't, you move on. Fantasy does no damage (or shouldn't), especially with education and instruction to ensure they understand what they need to. Or you can just not buy your kids Barbie.

Another thing, nobody acknowledged several of my good points. What about impossible intellectual standards, financial, or status? Are those just as dangerous? Should Batman be retconned to be a middle-class, average looking man with an average intellect? Is that really the solution? Dumb everything down?

[LOOT]

[spooky scary bearatons]

[QUOTE="I REALLY HATE POKEMON!, post: 1537407, member: 18119"] What about impossible intellectual standards, financial, or status? Are those just as dangerous? Should Batman be retconned to be a middle-class, average looking man with an average intellect? Is that really the solution? Dumb everything down?[/QUOTE]

god no. who would i relate too in comics if that happened

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

[QUOTE="spooky scary bearatons, post: 1537443, member: 30168"]god no. who would i relate too in comics if that happened[/QUOTE]

Because everyone needs to be relatable, of course. I like Goku because I'm just like him in every single way oh wait no I'm not.

There's such a wide spectrum of media and real people that there's a little something for everyone. Problem is everyone is an entitled prick who thinks everything needs to revolve around them, and **** themselves about perfect fantasy characters (not pointing fingers at individuals, just seems like a common complaint these days).

[spooky scary bearatons]

with that attitude you're not like him, think long and hard irhp and believe in your sayian heritage

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

#saiyandiversity

[Deepfake]

One day I will be as cool as Mr Satan.[DOUBLEPOST=1433919253,1433919213][/DOUBLEPOST]

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

I wish they kept his name as Hercule.

[United Nations]

[QUOTE="I REALLY HATE POKEMON!, post: 1537452, member: 18119"]Problem is everyone is an entitled prick who thinks everything needs to revolve around them, and **** themselves about perfect fantasy characters (not pointing fingers as individuals, just seems like a common complain these days).[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes:

[Apollo the Just]

The thing about disney princess beauty standards is that even though it's impossible, actual real-life models and celebrities are photoshopped to fit them.

Comparing original photos to published ads show that already-unhealthily-skinny women's bodies are edited to look even thinner, celebrating a look that is physically impossible to actually have in the real world. These are absolutely beauty standards that women are expected to live up to-- models are celebrated as the prettiest and supposedly physically the most attractive women can be, and yet the models themselves don't look the way they are advertised. Mannequins in stores are usually sculpted to represent either a size 0 or a similarly rare ideal of thinness, rather than the actual average size of women, so even the shirts we buy are being displayed on bodies we can't actually have. Disney Princesses are absolutely not the sole and only propagator of these beauty standards; that would be silly and if they were no one would give it any credibility. However, the flawless skin, thin hourglass figure, slender limbs, and long-legged proportion that Disney Princesses have are celebrated in the media everywhere as an ideal body, even though it doesn't really exist.

Now of course, male models are photoshopped too. I understand this. However, males are still permitted a broader range of "attractive" or "ideal" bodies-- the broad, muscular body, or the thin, lanky body are both accepted. I 100% agree that these standards are harmful for people regardless of gender and that in all cases you're not allowed to have any fat on you at all (which is ridiculous), but I want to hone in on the fact that there are no Disney princesses with the broad, muscular body type; only the thin ones. It's perpetuating this idea that women should be pretty, not strong, whereas men can be either.

[ScottyMcGee]

^Yeah, that was another thing I wanted to bring up but forgot. While guys do still grow up in an environment where they are pressured to be macho and big and tough, it's much more lenient in the long run. Countless shows, movies and books are about weak nerdy guys or fat guys who still get the hot slim girl regardless of how they look. But we hardly see the opposite, where a woman doesn't have to change her weight or makeup choices and still gets a hot slim guy. It's mostly Beauty and the Beast tropes with the female and male roles respectively.

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

The thing about disney princess beauty standards is that even though it's impossible, actual real-life models and celebrities are photoshopped to fit them.

That's "the thing" about them? What's it even mean? They're photoshopped (which is a relatively recent thing to do) so they're as fake as the princesses themselves.

I don't understand, so what if people are edited? You don't have to buy the magazines if you don't like it. As for mannequins, those are used to display actual clothes people buy, are they not? Therefore they're accurate to human shape. I have an even harder time understanding the issue with...mannequins.

I understand Disney isn't the only company peddling unrealistic portrayals of human anatomy. In fact, I'd wage somewhere around 8/10 cartoon/games do in some way or another. I don't know if that equates to "celebration" but it's how things are, no doubt.

males are still permitted a broader range of "attractive" or "ideal" bodies[/b]-- the broad, muscular body, or the thin, lanky body are both accepted.

Do you mean in real life? If so, where the manual you're reading from? Because I call bull. Women can have nearly any shape and men will chase. Men are actually screwed if they're too short or too fat or too ugly. Women? The old gratuitous saying I've heard time and time again, "A hole's a hole" comes to mind. There is no such allowance for men, and this is all speaking in general, of course.

But they aren't all "hourglass," as Mulan's little boy look illustrates. But in general, yeah, women in media do more often have to be physically "perfect." However, I don't agree that men can be "either." Women just have to "look" good. Men usually have to look perfect, too, and are forced to be "super" in some way, not just strength (but usually strength plus something else). Even your non-superhero types like Nathan Drake who was supposed to be relatable, he's forced into the attractive mold too, but not just that, he's a charasmatic, intelligent, strong "badass" (don't peddle the "male fantasy" bs btw, I don't buy it).

In short, men have to look good, and generally be powerful in some way (financial, physical, status, ect) but usually have a bunch of other positive traits all crammed into one person. Men have at least two standards to uphold in that it isn't just enough to be a ripped man-babe but like women but they need to have other extraordinary facets. It's doubly impossible to live up to, I think. But that's just me disagreeing, and as previously stated by others, it isn't a contest.

I don't find it to be too harmful, though. So what is Nathan & Lara make the most impossibly perfect couple and their kids would be demi-gods? I'll just never get it and I think it's time that we move past the "is this a problem" phase of this debate (because I'm not entirely convinced it is a big problem, although it isn't good, I can concede that) and onto the potential solutions, in detail.

I asked before if we should make character hideous, and UN said no. She just said "relatable." But what is relatable? What if you are hideous, like plenty of people are? Your "relatable" will probably still be a beauty standard enforced upon them. If we're going to go on a scale, where right now model portrayals are 10s, what do we drop it to? 5? Will that really help? Those ones, two, and threes are still going to feel like how you guys argue everyone else feels right now. So the only logical solution is to bring everyone down to 1s in media to make everyone feel warm and fuzzy inside. But is that fair to the 1s? Exploit them to make everyone above 1 but below 10 feel great? Maybe just get rid of it all entirely, ban portrayals period.

I don't know. I just don't get this **** but it's an interesting topic and I want to hear alternative solutions to this epidemic.[DOUBLEPOST=1433986620,1433986068][/DOUBLEPOST]

^Yeah, that was another thing I wanted to bring up but forgot. While guys do still grow up in an environment where they are pressured to be macho and big and tough, it's much more lenient in the long run. Countless shows, movies and books are about weak nerdy guys or fat guys who still get the hot slim girl regardless of how they look.

First of all, "countless?" I disagree, that's rare. And talk about male fantasy, lol, He-Man isn't the male fantasy like feminists say, it's the weak fat, nerdy, guy getting the hot chick, that's the "male fantasy." It's unrealistic and only serves to make socially-deemed inadequate people feel better about themselves and those stories were almost exclusively written by men, whereas the Edward vampire types are written by women as often as men.

Of course we hardly see the opposite, that's not a female fantasy. Fat, nerdy, weak men DO have problems getting women, much more than a fat, nerdy, weak woman would have getting a man. They don't need to write stories about it as fantasy, it's already reality.

[LOOT]

[QUOTE="Loot, post: 1537439, member: 21459"][/QUOTE]