If Our Sons Were Treated Like Our Daughters

[Saria Dragon of the Rain Wilds]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lori-day/ ... 98346.html

Come with me. Let's open the door to a parallel universe. You unlock this door with a key of imagination, just like on The Twilight Zone. Here in this parallel world, the rules are different because gender roles are flipped. Loving parents and teachers accept this strange culture as if it's not so bad, or perhaps even good. As if the reverse of this culture could exist only in the minds of fiction writers or lunatics.

As we travel together, let's observe the childhood of one baby boy, born into this alternate reality, as seen through the eyes of his mother:

In the womb: It is your baby shower, and everyone has known for several months that you are having a boy. It's so wonderful after having had a girl first to finally be having a precious little boy. You receive carefully chosen baby gifts that celebrate your son's gender. Everyone's favorite item is a tiny white onesie with powder blue lettering that says Future Trophy Husband. You think for a fleeting moment that this is a bit odd, even inappropriate, but all of your friends think it's super cute. You guess that it is.

Birth: He has finally arrived and you name him Logan! He is healthy and rosy-cheeked and weighs almost 9 pounds. When it is time to take him home, you say goodbye to the skilled and compassionate nurses who took such good care of you both, and one of them tells you, "He is so gorgeous. I bet he'll be a model one day."

Age 1: Happy first birthday to Logan! You keep the party small and inexpensive -- mostly family and a couple of friends. Grandma brings a cake from the supermarket. It is covered in blue icing, has a crown on top, and says, "For the Birthday Prince."

Age 2: Christmas this year involves lots of presents and Logan loves the wrapping paper and ribbons more than the toys inside, like most toddlers. He receives so many wonderful gifts. There is a set of musical instruments, all pale blue. There is a special box of boy Lincoln Logs made of blue plastic. There is a little blue T-shirt that says, "I'm too handsome to read books, so my sister reads them for me." He can't read yet and doesn't understand that slogan, but the adults all laugh, so he laughs, too.

Age 3: Logan is an active preschooler. As he runs through the house, you hear the tap-tap-tapping of his little shiny dress shoes on the hardwood floors. Occasionally, he slides in them and goes down on his bum, but he gets right back up again. Outside is a new swing set. He loves to try to run up the slide, but it's tricky in those smooth-soled shoes. When he wears them to preschool, the teachers notice that it's hard for him to run and climb like the girls, but they gush over how handsome he looks in them.

Age 4: Now in pre-K, Logan is really into imaginary play. You love to watch him play with the boys and do boy things. There's a bright blue oven, a powder blue vacuum cleaner and a popular building station -- an enormous bin of blue and purple Lego Buddies sets that can be made into spas, shopping malls and pet stores. Next to that there is another bin of male fashion dolls that all have sultry eyes, pouty lips and tight, sexy clothes. The boys know who they are. They are boys! They avoid the girly doctor kits and toy cars and multi-colored game boards. Those come from the girl aisle.

Age 5: The years are flying by, and Logan is now in kindergarten. On the first day of school, his teacher asks the children lots of questions so he can get to know them. Who has a pet at home? The children chatter about dogs and cats and goldfish and hamsters. What is your favorite color? Green! Red! Black! Yellow! Pink! Brown! Orange! say the girls. Blue! say all of the boys except one, who says Purple! No girls say blue or purple. You notice this too and think it's a little strange, but when you mention it to a friend, she tells you this is natural for boys and exclaims how nice it is that boys can be boyish.

Age 6: Logan is learning to read! There are so many books in his classroom, and he naturally gravitates to books about princes. He even wears his Prince Charming costume to school most days and keeps it clean. He daydreams about growing up rich and living in a castle and being married to a beautiful princess. You love that he is learning the important princely qualities of kindness, good grooming and an appreciation for the finer things in life. You do wish he'd like books about science, too, so you buy him a book called The Astronaut Prince. It has an enchanting illustration on the cover of an astronaut in a pale blue sparkly spacesuit that has a crown insignia on the chest. You love that Logan can read about being a prince and an astronaut!

Age 8: In his third grade classroom, Logan has a short, simple writing assignment. He is to write about a "goal" that he has in life. He is torn -- he wants to be the president and he wants to be a prince. So he writes about both. He thinks perhaps he'll be a prince who's also the president and gets to wear royal tights and a jeweled crown in the White House. But soon enough, the "prince phase" has passed. He finds his earlier writing assignment and announces to you, "Princes are babyish. I don't want to be that anymore." When you suggest that he might still become president, he corrects you. "No, mom, I want to be a famous singer or model or movie star -- like all the boys."

Age 11: Middle school! It's a whole new world with different classrooms, different teachers and kids who seem to have changed a lot over the summer. Sometimes he pretends to be dumb so girls will like him. Logan feels some pressure to conform. He wants to dress like the other boys in clothes that you and his father feel are a bit too clingy and revealing. He notices how hot and sexy all of the boys are on television and in the movies, and he wants to be hot and sexy too, so he rolls up the bottoms of his turquoise shorts to make them shorter, hoping not to receive a dress code violation. He has mastered the ability to look around nonchalantly as he walks down the hall, checking to be sure the girls are admiring his body.

Age 14: Logan has been playing soccer for several years, but he suddenly drops out. When he competes he gets sweaty, his hair gets messed up and he doesn't like the way his legs look when he's running. He knows that girls could be eyeing him and he is gripped by self-consciousness. It's OK, though. He has plenty of male friends who have also decided that athletics make them look gross, so now they all watch the girls' matches from the sidelines and cheer the girls on.

Age 17: It's time to look at colleges. Logan is excited for this new chapter in his life. He'd like to apply to engineering schools and he might, even though he knows it's a woman's world and that he'll have to perform twice as well to be perceived as half as good. He'll face a lot of sexism and sexual harassment in the workplace. He'll get paid less than the women, who everyone knows are innately better at science. Deep down, he wonders if he can be handsome and sexy and a chemical engineer, and whether he'll be able to one day balance having a family with that kind of job. You tell him that even though he sees these stereotypes a lot in the media, men can do anything women can.

Age 21: Logan is now an adult in his final year of college, and beginning to interview for jobs after graduation. He always dresses well for his interviews, wearing a slimming outfit that makes him look both professional and attractive. As he navigates the city streets that he hopes will connect him to a future full of happiness and success, he passes by billboards and bus ads of men in G-strings with flawless, Photoshopped bodies. He barely notices them. As he mentally rehearses for an upcoming interview, he walks down the sidewalk, lost in thought. "Smile, baby!" a woman calls out to him. "You look more handsome when you smile."

We leave Logan's story here, because here is as good as anywhere, and we wish him luck. Thank you for joining me on this whimsical journey. I now return you to the world you know, the one that needs changing.

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

God forbid a cake says birthday pince/ess. The world, I swear.

You could give me a cake calling me a stupid piece of s**t and I'd take a sliver.

[United Nations]

I think it's commenting more on how girls are obsessed with the "princess culture." Girls are told they are little princesses who should measure up to Disney princesses who are flawless and set impossible beauty standards. The princesses' sole desire is a handsome man who will whisk them off into the sunset to live happily ever after. It's a dangerous path to lead our little girls. Why focus on beauty and marriage when we could be teaching them work ethics, the sciences, how smart they are, and how to build and design and create like what we teach boys?

It has nothing to do with birthday cakes.

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

Disney princesses are flawless? Most are a mess personality-wise for a million reasons, and beauty standards? Some are mutant fish creatures or miniature winged freaks. Sorry but that is a weak argument.

Also, most prncess' don't have this "sole" desire for a "handsome" man (funny how you don't mention the standards males are set up to...well you do but your own words go right over your head).

Aerial's desire to see the land is strong, Belle didn't even like beast at first, and Princess Anna is probably the most fleshed out and multidimensional of the princesses. So yeah.

Teaching how to build, design, and create what? Nothing soft or pink, right? Lol.

Anyway, there's no danger involved. I say give them the option and freedom to do as they wish but treating girls like girls isn't bad, people just want to make it bad.

Also, I am pretty sure cakes were one of the issues, and being a model is evil too lolololol.

[United Nations]

Okay, look at this picture of the main princesses and tell me they're not flawless. Impossibly tiny waists, no blemishes, rosy cheeks, tiny feet, perfectly in-place hair, perfectly fitting dresses...

I'm just saying.

And I'm not ignoring male standards. I think you're right, males do have Prince Charming standards according to Disney. But looking at toy aisles, princess movies are stereotypically for girls. I agree, I think we should remove impossible standards from both genders, but there's something to be said about the harm princess culture is causing young girls.

When asked what girls want to be when they grow up, thy respond, "Princess!" more often then not. Why not doctor? Or teacher? Or any realistic job? We tell girls, "You're so cute! You're so beautiful!" But what about her other traits. Girls grow up having this idea of what they should look like or act like and it starts with what we tell them when they're little and what we expose them too.

Your right, there are other issues as well at play here, but I'm trying to touch on what this story is trying to bring to light.

[I am nobody]

[QUOTE="I REALLY HATE POKEMON!, post: 1537005, member: 18119"]
Teaching how to build, design, and create what? Nothing soft or pink, right? Lol.

Anyway, there's no danger involved. I say give them the option and freedom to do as they wish but treating girls like girls isn't bad, people just want to make it bad.
[/QUOTE]

The article is exaggerated because it's impossible to convey the full context of someone's life in the space of a page. The point is not that it's inherently wrong to compliment someone's appearance or for girls to like pink, it's that we have a problem when the princess trope goes from being a choice young girls are making themselves to one that's forced upon them by the sheer weight of Disney's marketing and cultural expectations.

There's no doubt that it's getting better, but, unfortunately, this article could be a biography of one of my sister's old friends if the name was changed.

[RandomGuy]

I couldn't make it past the crown, and I've been drinking.

[United Nations]

[QUOTE="User Name, post: 1537007, member: 31164"]
Okay, look at this picture of the main princesses and tell me they're not flawless. Impossibly tiny waists, no blemishes, rosy cheeks, tiny feet, perfectly in-place hair, perfectly fitting dresses...

I'm just saying.

And I'm not ignoring male standards. I think you're right, males do have Prince Charming standards according to Disney. But looking at toy aisles, princess movies are stereotypically for girls. I agree, I think we should remove impossible standards from both genders, but there's something to be said about the harm princess culture is causing young girls.

When asked what girls want to be when they grow up, thy respond, "Princess!" more often then not. Why not doctor? Or teacher? Or any realistic job? We tell girls, "You're so cute! You're so beautiful!" But what about her other traits. Girls grow up having this idea of what they should look like or act like and it starts with what we tell them when they're little and what we expose them too.

Your right, there are other issues as well at play here, but I'm trying to touch on what this story is trying to bring to light.[/QUOTE]
Wow, the grammar in this post is so gross. Sorry. I had just woken up.

[Kil'jaeden]

My friend's daughter said she wanted to be a princess at her birthday party. So I went into great detail about what that historically entailed. I asked if she was ready to rule a feudal domain, and if she knew which has greater dignity among the nobility, a baron or a duke. I asked if she could handle and manipulate people, defuse conflicts, and advance herself politically. I also asked if her parents had decided on her political marriage yet, and if she was open to the possibility of one day retiring to a convent. I asked if she was prepared to use fire and sword on her enemies, and defend against hordes of barbarians or aristocratic plots against the monarchy. She apparently had no clue about any of that.

[Kil'jaeden]

And while I am at it, I will defend at least one of those "princesses" in the picture. UN said some nonsense about being whisked off into the sunset by a prince. Mulan up there in the picture not only defies that, she gets up front of a pitiful squad of new recruits with a rocket, facing a horde of vicious barbarians that just massacred a village nearby, and all of the main force of the army that she snuck into. And then what does she do? She causes an avalanche that in all likelihood should have killed her and everyone else there as well, just to make sure that the horde of barbarians does not make it further into her country. And then she goes on to rescue the emperor, despite being badly treated after her former accomplishment. If that is not a feminist friendly role model, then I don't know who is. And she is even better in the original Chinese account, where she actually gets promoted to the top of the ranks and stacks up a bunch of awards and accolades in a long military career. They don't even react to finding out she is a woman, as no penalty for that is actually mentioned in the original account. The Disney version actually shows the society as being more misogynistic than the original, and that is saying something given the time and place.

[LOOT]

Mulan is not a princess also her original story is much more badass

[Deepfake]

[QUOTE="User Name, post: 1537003, member: 31164"]I think it's commenting more on how girls are obsessed with the "princess culture." Girls are told they are little princesses who should measure up to Disney princesses who are flawless and set impossible beauty standards. The princesses' sole desire is a handsome man who will whisk them off into the sunset to live happily ever after. It's a dangerous path to lead our little girls. Why focus on beauty and marriage when we could be teaching them work ethics, the sciences, how smart they are, and how to build and design and create like what we teach boys?

It has nothing to do with birthday cakes.[/QUOTE]
This was one of the reasons why it was so difficult to get along with 'girls' when I was a child, really. They were largely thrust into this totally different and artificial value set where personal skills and interests were completely unimportant if they weren't related to the princess fantasy. Which is saying something, because one of my best friends was a girl and a 'tomboy' who played alternative sports with me at recess, etc. It was easier to identify with her than the other guys who equally bought into the whole false machismo standards set for all of the boys, especially since all any of them could manage was to be jackasses to eachother.

As a result, I kind of hated the whole Disney Princess thing with a passion.

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

Okay, look at this picture of the main princesses and tell me they're not flawless. Impossibly tiny waists, no blemishes, rosy cheeks, tiny feet, perfectly in-place hair, perfectly fitting dresses...

I'm just saying.

You conveniently found a picture of Ariel in her false human form, not her natural, iconic merfolk form, left out Tinkerbell entirely, Mulan looks like a feminine boy, and Pocahontas looks like a man in drag. So yeah, I'll tell you they aren't flawless. If you're specifically saying that they aren't fat, or seriously suggesting they should have warts, crooked teeth, and lazy eyes, sorry, that's ridiculous.

IIIINTRODUCING NEW BURN WARD PRINCEEEEEESS! With her body covered in 80% 3rd degree burns, she's the hottest new princess in town!



letz ghet reel

My real point is that Prince Charming or Pretty Princess standards are fantasy and shouldn't affect mentally sound individuals. I'm no prince charming, it doesn't matter to me. Why should it matter to girls? Who cares about "standards" set by cartoons? People need to, and teach their children to, base their values on real life, not fiction. Nobody is crying Sherlock Holmes set unrealistic intelligence standards, but why? How about Bruce Wayne and his financial standards? And how about all those heroes? **** pricks with their moral standards up in the air.

When boys are asked, do they say lawyer? Or do they say Iron Man, like my nephew? Sorry kid, you'll never be a rich playboy genius superhero. Know what though? He's a smart enough kid and will find his own way in life, given the chance, and him answering superhero, or if he were a girl answering princess, I'd think the same thing.

You can tell a girl she is pretty and still focus on other traits. I don't know why you aren't mentioning that.[DOUBLEPOST=1433831441,1433831278][/DOUBLEPOST]

Mulan is not a princess also her original story is much more badass

They still market her as one.

[Deepfake]

^ "Guys experience it too" is a false dichotomy. One doesn't negate the other.

[LOOT]

oppression is not a contest

[Random User]

I do think that our fictional stuff has for a long time set a standard for society. I often felt bad about myself for not being the strongest kid in the class and falling closer to nerd stereotypes, which often got me bullied and left me alienated. Kids pay attention to what media portrays as desirable. If you have weird quirks, aren't the best-looking or show any sign of going against the grain, children will mark you as an undesirable. And they will hate you for it. And that will stick with you for the rest of your life. People say girls are more vicious about it. I could understand why. They tend to be constrained to even less negative qualities than most males that are depicted in fiction.

[I REALLY HATE POKEMON!]

[QUOTE="Beard Physics, post: 1537201, member: 25415"]^ "Guys experience it too" is a false dichotomy. One doesn't negate the other.[/QUOTE]

They're both false issues to begin with.[DOUBLEPOST=1433837750,1433837710][/DOUBLEPOST][QUOTE="Loot, post: 1537202, member: 21459"]oppression is not a contest[/QUOTE]

It isn't. Good thing this princess/prince business isn't oppression[DOUBLEPOST=1433837900][/DOUBLEPOST][QUOTE="Revenant User, post: 1537211, member: 35827"]I do think that our fictional stuff has for a long time set a standard for society. I often felt bad about myself for not being the strongest kid in the class and falling closer to nerd stereotypes, which often got me bullied and left me alienated. Kids pay attention to what media portrays as desirable. If you have weird quirks, aren't the best-looking or show any sign of going against the grain, children will mark you as an undesirable. And they will hate you for it. And that will stick with you for the rest of your life. People say girls are more vicious about it. I could understand why. They tend to be constrained to even less negative qualities than most males that are depicted in fiction.[/QUOTE]

Not to diminish your personal experiences, but you shouldn't have cared you weren't the strongest, and fiction certainly shouldn't factor in. Its almost incomprehensible. Can't we differentiate between fiction and reality?

[Random User]

[QUOTE="I REALLY HATE POKEMON!, post: 1537233, member: 18119"]Not to diminish your personal experiences, but you shouldn't have cared you weren't the strongest, and fiction certainly shouldn't factor in. Its almost incomprehensible. Can't we differentiate between fiction and reality?[/QUOTE]
It's not that it's fiction, really, it's just media in general that portrays this perfect being that you have to become.

And the problem wasn't whether or not I cared about being tough. Everyone else cared, because it meant they got to either push me around or degrade me. I wasn't born a cynic. Disney Princesses, Barbie, models on magazine covers. They're all the same to little girls - who they are supposed to strive to be and role models. And if they don't make the cut, everyone else will pin them as someone to avoid or harass. There will be some who don't care about looking perfect, and I applaud that. Unfortunately it means they'll probably get the same raw deal I did, though, because most people do care.

[United Nations]

[QUOTE="Kil'jaeden, post: 1537188, member: 26719"]And while I am at it, I will defend at least one of those "princesses" in the picture. UN said some nonsense about being whisked off into the sunset by a prince. Mulan up there in the picture not only defies that, she gets up front of a pitiful squad of new recruits with a rocket, facing a horde of vicious barbarians that just massacred a village nearby, and all of the main force of the army that she snuck into. And then what does she do? She causes an avalanche that in all likelihood should have killed her and everyone else there as well, just to make sure that the horde of barbarians does not make it further into her country. And then she goes on to rescue the emperor, despite being badly treated after her former accomplishment. If that is not a feminist friendly role model, then I don't know who is. And she is even better in the original Chinese account, where she actually gets promoted to the top of the ranks and stacks up a bunch of awards and accolades in a long military career. They don't even react to finding out she is a woman, as no penalty for that is actually mentioned in the original account. The Disney version actually shows the society as being more misogynistic than the original, and that is saying something given the time and place.[/QUOTE]
Wow, one of those princesses is different. You really showed me. I was using that picture as an example of beauty. And Mulan isn't a princess anyway.

[United Nations]

[QUOTE="I REALLY HATE POKEMON!, post: 1537194, member: 18119"]You conveniently found a picture of Ariel in her false human form, not her natural, iconic merfolk form, left out Tinkerbell entirely, Mulan looks like a feminine boy, and Pocahontas looks like a man in drag. So yeah, I'll tell you they aren't flawless. If you're specifically saying that they aren't fat, or seriously suggesting they should have warts, crooked teeth, and lazy eyes, sorry, that's ridiculous.

IIIINTRODUCING NEW BURN WARD PRINCEEEEEESS! With her body covered in 80% 3rd degree burns, she's the hottest new princess in town!



letz ghet reel



My real point is that Prince Charming or Pretty Princess standards are fantasy and shouldn't affect mentally sound individuals. I'm no prince charming, it doesn't matter to me. Why should it matter to girls? Who cares about "standards" set by cartoons? People need to, and teach their children to, base their values on real life, not fiction. Nobody is crying Sherlock Holmes set unrealistic intelligence standards, but why? How about Bruce Wayne and his financial standards? And how about all those heroes? ****ing pricks with their moral standards up in the air.



When boys are asked, do they say lawyer? Or do they say Iron Man, like my nephew? Sorry kid, you'll never be a rich playboy genius superhero. Know what though? He's a smart enough kid and will find his own way in life, given the chance, and him answering superhero, or if he were a girl answering princess, I'd think the same thing.

You can tell a girl she is pretty and still focus on other traits. I don't know why you aren't mentioning that.[DOUBLEPOST=1433831441,1433831278][/DOUBLEPOST]

They still market her as one.[/QUOTE]
I searched "Disney Princess" and it was the first thing that came up. I don't know how you think Ariel is deformed. She's got hair that is perfect-looking underwater, a bikini that shows off her tiny waist and perky breasts, huge green eyes, and delicate little hands. Yeah, she has a tail, but I don't think that affects her beauty at all. I'm not saying they should have warts or 3rd degree burns but what about a normally shaped head or a realistically sized waist and proportions? Girls constantly compare themselves to these princesses so why not go the extra mile to make them relatable is all I'm saying.

You're right, cartoons and how they're portrayed shouldn't affect someone's mental constitution, but they do. Hell, I even remember wanting my mom to dye my hair red when I was a little girl. When I found a coconut bra at a gift shop in Florida, I put it over my shirt and looked in the mirror they provided in the clothes section to see if I looked good in a bikini. I went to Florida when I was 6. I just think it's funny that you think Ariel isn't flawless because I thought she was the prettiest. Also tinker bell isn't a princess, love.

I grew up with superheroes too. I have a weird opinion about superheroes and children that I won't get into here but you're welcome to message me about it. And again, I'm just focusing on women because that's what the original passage did, but I agree boys have standards held to them as well. Some are even more detrimental than the girls'.

It's definitely okay to tell a girl she's pretty and also focus on other traits. The problem is that society doesn't often focus on other traits. Beauty is supposedly our most important trait. We're told, "Only attractive people get what they want in life. Women shouldn't have curves or look too skinny. Is that a muffin top? Maybe you should wear makeup, are you sick?" All the while, I've only been praised intellectually in my life once I got to high school and college, but by then, the damage is already done. All through elementary school, I was bullied and picked on for not being the prettiest. I developed my body quicker than others and I was picked on for that. I was picked on for not having blonde hair. I was picked on for not being able to wear a bikini and for my one piece looking frumpy. I was picked on for wearing my Batman skirt. I was picked on for everything concerning my looks because society told them I didn't live up to the standards being put out for women.

The damage was done. Those girls who picked on me weren't the only people in my life who focused on beauty. I'm just saying, in a perfect world, we would praise a girl or boy for all of their wonderful traits, but for a girl, it just doesn't happen.