The Many Marios Free-for-All

[Rainbow Dash]

do it

[Blake]

I'll join once everyone comes to a consensus. However, I would prefer a two-day deadline to get each turn in.

[heh]

Just because I went efficiency with them? I almost did it with Birdo or Goomba instead, would you have said those were broken when I got similar results with them?

Boos aren't broken, it's just that I'm a)focusing entirely on getting as many Boos as possible, b)taking advantage of the fact that units haven't been re-priced to take the lack of housing/upkeep into account, c)going hogwild with March of the Horde and the Spawn Pipe, and d) neglecting items because Boos can't use most of them in the first place (and actually, Marios would probably be more efficient with items, as would all the 3E for 100c units).

I could have beaten 1000c on turn 3 with Birdo easily- hit something more like 1500c (300E), and that's not counting March of the Horde or the Warp Pipe. Just because nobody else got the same kind of results doesn't mean that nobody else *could* have gotten the same kind of results.



Regardless, I could go either way- I really don't care much as long as there is more game.

I havn't even looked at your posts and i can tell you boos are broken. you'd trash me in a fight, items and even the fact that my birdos are like 2 marios don't make up for the fact that you can get twice as many boos that are worth about 1 1/2 marios.

Basically, all i'm saying is if your going to have a team that gets cheap units that are still better the most needs to have a bigger disadvantage.

If I had used your stratgy with birdos, you'd still have much more overall power.



Start over if you must, Dux.

E: but don't make a 2 day deadline, christ. If they miss a day just have all the units get money and defend automatically.

[Breadlord Dragoshi]

Start over, I guess. I really don't mind either way, though. :/

[SephirothKirby]

It's not just a matter of having twice as much energy as any one player- You have more energy than everyone put together.

I'm pretty sure that would still be true if all anyone ever did was Gather, Recruit, Gather, Recruit (maybe not, but you'd still have 2x as any one person).

[Dux is not you]

So the unanimous decision is start over with new rules. However, there's still a point of disagreement. Chunky and Blake ask for two-day turns, while TG would rather keep one-day turns and have idle players take some kind of default actions.

I'm thinking two-day turns are the way to go. That way I can take every other night to create new game objects, plan the ruleset fixes, and, well, do my job as game creator as opposed to game host. Besides, it wouldn't hurt to just try, right? And Many Mario Bros. had week-long turns already, and they weren't really that bad... or were they?

[The Willful Wanderer]

RULZ ZOMG GOML LOL

I havn't even looked at your posts and i can tell you boos are broken. you'd trash me in a fight, items and even the fact that my birdos are like 2 marios don't make up for the fact that you can get twice as many boos that are worth about 1 1/2 marios.

Basically, all i'm saying is if your going to have a team that gets cheap units that are still better the most needs to have a bigger disadvantage.

If I had used your stratgy with birdos, you'd still have much more overall power.

I'm not so sure. Let's test!

Economic Might Right Now (Begin Turn 6):
Boo x151 (4530c equivalent)

With Goombas:

Day 1:
Goomba x25
Gather x50
Goomba x6
Gather x12
Goomba
Gather x2
Goomba
Gather x2
END: 10C 0E 32G
Day 2 (64 energy, 10 coin start):
Gather x64
Goomba x8
Gather x16
Goomba x2
Gather x4
END: 30C 0E 42G
Day 3: (84 energy, 30 coin start):
Gather x84
Coin Block x37
END: 6c 0E 42G 37CB
Day 4: (84 energy, 0 coin, 37 coin block start):
Punch Coin Block x37
Coin Block x28
Punch Coin Block x28
Coin Block x19
Punch Coin Block x19
Coin Block x6
Goomba x3
Punch Coin Block x6
Coin Block x2
Goomba x1
Punch Coin Block x2
END: 20c 0E 46G 92CB 0P
Day 5: (92 energy, 20 coin, 92 coin block start):
Punch Coin Block x92
Coin Block x26
Goomba x13
Punch Coin Block x26
Goomba x3
Coin Block x6
Punch Coin Block x6
Goomba x1
Coin Block x2
Punch Coin Block x2
Goomba x1
Gather x2
Coin Block x1
END: 12c 0E 64G 127CB 1P
Economic Might Right Now (Begin Turn 6):
Goomba x64, Coin Block x127 (1150c Equivalent)

Hmmm. That's not right. Alright, let's see what else.

Birdos! What about Birdo?

Ah. Nevermind. This makes a few things clear to me.
1: Yes, Boos *are* overpowered. Not by *lots*, it's just that the cumulative effect of constant building makes it more obvious. Birdo are the closest to catching up to them, with standard Koopas and Shy Guys falling far to the wayside. Kicking them down to 5E would be enough to balance them against the better other races.
2: The effect of *JUST ONE TURN* of stacking the Spawn Pipe and March of the Horde effects is *RIDICULOUSLY HUGE* (Dig it, without that, I'd have had only 100 or so Boo at the end of turn 5, a 1/3 reduction in economic power.).
3: Anyone not abusing the everloving heck out of March of the Horde is crippled by comparison to someone who is using it every turn.
4: Goombas and the other low-energy units need to be more efficient. Especially Goombas, because they have so little in the way of bonus FX. The only place Goombas have the advantage is in being able to equip more things (negligible; you still have to *buy* and *use* those more things) and being ridiculously less vulnerable to M-Cannon Cheese (inapplicable due to combat being nonviable).
5: The Spawn Pipe is not an effective alternative to March of the Horde. Especially not for high-cost units- MotH allows Birdo to spend 65 for a unit, whereas the Warp Pipe only doubles units they spend 130 for- which means that a Birdo player using the Warp Pipe can have 80c left over and wind up with one less Birdo than the one using the MotH, who has 15c left over and that extra unit, instead. Additionally, the delay on the added unit makes them unfeasible. If they arrived at half energy, maybe. But not at no energy.
6: The Shy Guys' ability is borderline useless. There are only three spells, and you can only cast each once per turn, and their cost is low enough to be casting each multiple times in a turn without issues. If there were (a lot) more spells, or at least a few spells worth casting repeatedly, then it would be nifty. Right now, it's just vaguely okay-ish.

[heh]

In a game like this they would start gaining ground though without people teaming up you, which shouldn't be necessary. as the game goes on the boos would get more powerful.

also yeah march of the hoard should be gotten rid of entirely, spawn pipe should come way later, i'm thinking 60oc 100e or something. Maybe way higher. In its place you could put a building with a similar current cost that gives you one free unit everyday. Maybe 2 for less beefy races. I'd buy it.

Also starblade, I'd would recommend measuring power by per-day energy instead of money. Maybe money too, but E is the more important resource, how much of it you make per day determines the upper limit of your power.

[Blake]

Yeah I too have been searching for the ways to uber my way through this game and have done everything from ratios to actual testing to find any ways to get ahead.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm bitching about the game I never played dux, I just feel like voicing out a few discoveries I found as well.

I, too have realized how cheap the Warp Pipe and March of the Horde can be. If neither of these abilities have a cap as to how many units could be created in one given day, then armies can grow exponentially as we've seen with Selene's army of boos. If the limit is only 25 or 30 units or something with a decent amount of cost then these abilities should prevent abuse.

---

Another thing I find is Birdos seem quite powerful as well. With the choice of spending 100c for 4e on Marios, or 130c for 8e, there's no question that Birdos are much more cost efficient and harvest much more than Marios do. If Birdos had 6e they would be more balanced IMO.

Anyway, sorry again for moaning about rules and stuff. Anyhow, I think I'll have fun and play the Koopas when this thing starts up. I think I have an idea for a decent strategy with what would seem like an otherwise weak race.

[KirbyBoy2000]

I think I'll be joining this when it starts up again... Here's my thoughts on a few things if you care.

Most Powerful to Weakest Races: Boo, Birdo, Goomba, (Toad, Koopa, Shyguy), Koopa Bros., Mario.

It seems like the best strategy for building up power is just to continuously build units and gather coins. I'd say make some stronger alternatives to it; or to limit that in some way (Max # of units, ways to weaken gathering, ect.).

... *sits and waits for start*

[SephirothKirby]

I think it's like this:
Boo, Birdo, Goomba, Koopa Bros., Shyguy, Toad, Koopa, Mario.

[KirbyBoy2000]

I'm basing everything off of their energy in comparison to the cost it takes them to reach that.

10 energy (Goomba) - 5 goomba - 200coins
10 energy (Koopa/Shyguy) - 3 units, 1 Super mushroom - 230 coins
10 energy (Toad) - 2 units, 2 super mushrooms - 220 coins
10 energy (Koopa Bros.) - 2 units, 2 super mushrooms - 240 coins

As far as energy they have for any action, they spend more to get the same amount as other races. The Koopa Bros. have a bit of an advantage in combat, but really its only if they have the Throwing Hammers.

7 energy (Koopa) - 2 Koopas + 1 Mushroom /Cape - 160 coins
7 energy (Koopa Bros) - 1 Koopa Bro. + 1 Throwing Hammer - 140 coins.

[SephirothKirby]

They can steal their coins when they get +12E from Boomerangs.

Or +2e for 20c.

[Dux is not you]

Balancing the races is one of the issues I'm most worried about right now. I'm trying to think of the ability to equip items not as a bonus for units, but as a drawback for the items. This might lead to problems, though, since I want to keep the Marios' and Boos' abilities as they are. Anyway, the basic idea is that I'm costing units at a flat rate of 20c per point of energy... and hoping race effects are balanced enough. (Yes, Birdos and Goombas are getting actual abilities now.)

[heh]

I'm basing everything off of their energy in comparison to the cost it takes them to reach that.

10 energy (Goomba) - 5 goomba - 200coins
10 energy (Koopa/Shyguy) - 3 units, 1 Super mushroom - 230 coins
10 energy (Toad) - 2 units, 2 super mushrooms - 220 coins
10 energy (Koopa Bros.) - 2 units, 2 super mushrooms - 240 coins

As far as energy they have for any action, they spend more to get the same amount as other races. The Koopa Bros. have a bit of an advantage in combat, but really its only if they have the Throwing Hammers.

7 energy (Koopa) - 2 Koopas + 1 Mushroom /Cape - 160 coins
7 energy (Koopa Bros) - 1 Koopa Bro. + 1 Throwing Hammer - 140 coins.

I see what your saying, but after the first 3 the balance difference is close enough for combat bonus's and discounts to make a difference. Koopas in particlar are like and iron wall after they get castles and fortresses.

I think. I'm not sure about how battles work.

[SephirothKirby]

Well, I've been thinking a lot about combat, and honestly, unless you just really dislike someone, it isn't worth it.

You'll be spending your unit's energy against their unit's energy, and you get to do damage to (x) depending on what's left over. Well, the thing with that is, everyone else gets their turn, and even the defender gets their turn the next day, but the units you sent it don't recover energy the next day. That makes you missing an entire turn, unless you have some insane boost over your opponent.

[KirbyBoy2000]

Yeah, combat seems like a bad idea for the most part. Attacking is slow and even if you DO do any damage it probably won't be enough to justify having your units not having any energy. Plus its pretty much always easier (and a better option) just to defend; you have the turn before to prepare (gather coins, ect.) and then on the turn of the attack you see how many units are attacking and have them defend (plus you would have the option of creating more units if need be I'd guess).

The only unit I'd say really worth attacking anyone with would be the Airship. Its cheap and quick to build and then gives 40E for attacking whenever you want. I'd honestly say its a bit overpowered for its cost, but maybe not if combat stays the way that it is.

Atleast I'm assuming that about the airship; I'm kind of confused on building. The coin amount / Energy amount next to it is just how much you have to spend to get it; right? And do its effects start immediately or not until next turn? (If it is immediately though; with the Airship you can pretty much cripple someone starting day 2 while the rest of the units can gather/build more airships).

...And there goes my plans for the coming game. Oh well, I'd need to look everything over first anyway.

[heh]

Well yeah, there isn't much of a motivation to get ahead. If there was though combat would be important

[Blake]

What's the status on this? I still want to try this. I'll keep complaining to a minimum this time.