Final Fantasy 7

[Prince Phaeral]

^^Well, I guess I'm just not one for debates, to be fairly honest. I'll wander on out of this topic, in that case.

[Ace Mercury]

^^ It's just that some people have terrible arguments and decide to deride you for holding an opinion?

[Galefore]

FF7 is waaaaay over-rated. That does not in any way make it suck; it was the first FF I managed to beat, and it was one of my first FFs period. A good game, but the hype really, really hurt it for the "old-schoolers". I personally don't like it as much nowadays because I have evolved my tastes to match the times. But in all honesty, it's still a fun little RPG.

[Nomyt]

The only thing, that I liked in this game was Yuffie. Vince turned cool with DoC, which I quite like that game.

[Crazyswordsman]

^I agree with EVERYTHING you've said, except that it wasn't my first FF game. FFIV was my first, and I played FFVI and even FFVIII before FFVII.

[ZeldaGirl]

Why was this moved from NC? Codie always posts game topics in there.

It just seemed more appropriate here in the RPG forum - two people commented on the Neglected Characters forum being a bit strange for this topic (and no offense to Codie at all - just thought it seemed better suited here).

[Lurch1982]

The whole plot at the beginning with the Shinra vs. AVALANCHE was probably my favorite plot out of ANY Final Fantasy. But Seph ruined the whole damn thing.

Barret, Cid, Tifa, and the Shinra staff. That's about it. Almost every game except FFVIII had at least one more special person.

And how is a 3D game automatically better than a 2D game? Someone answer this question.


And that means what? The Super NES is better than Sony systems will EVER be. Someone please tell me why this is a reason a game can be better. -CSM

I try to not let the idiots out there ruin games for me. Take the Halo series. I like it, I have it in the top five shooter franchises of all time. I think they do far more things right than wrong, and the total package makes almost every other shooter out there blush (except the Half-Life series). Yet, there are people that do nothing but eat, sleep, and crap Halo, and are often the people who do nothing but team-frag you to get the shotgun, scream into the mic, teabag, and (my personal alltime favorite) drive the warthog off the cliff singing Come On Feel The Noise. They're annoying, sure, and other FPSers that do things better than Halo would blow their minds, but I don't let them bother me or trash my enjoyment of the game.

As much as I will put FF7 as an influential and overall solid game, the narrative for me started to break down progressively through the game. By the end, it was pretty incoherant and littered with things that made it feel like the game was rushed out and not actually finished. The ending? WTF was that? But even though the narrative did seem like the writer had a stroke halfway through, the game still delivered the goods. Could it have been better? Sure, anything could, but it was solid and set the tone and groundwork for every RPG that followed for years. I wouldn't go so far to put it as the best plot even in a FF game, but it still works for what it is.

I agree with you, the list of solid characters is pretty limited. Cid, Barrett, and Tifa are implemented well. Everyone else is half-assed or underdeveloped. I did like Red XIII though. More of him, less robot cats riding moogles.

I've played many 3D games that suck compared to their 2D counterpart (Castlevania being the prime offender). Yet, 3D RPGs have hit the point where they allow developers to do more with pushing the story in 3D. You can convey emotions, actions, and the general bastardry of the villains better in 3D than you could in 2D. Hell, things like boss form transformations work better in 3D. In 2D games you start with their world sprite, which might show them as some girl in a robe with a staff. After she stops babbling about how you won't succeed, you start the battle where you notice that she's now 5 times bigger than your characters and now looks like a butterfly person with fire wings holding a staff. 3D and the 3D cutscreens that follow allow developerss to actually show gamers this instead of just dumping you into the game. Take another example. If your main villain pops in and kills a secondary character halfway through the game, 3D is often, if not always more effective than 2D in showing this and conveying the emotion of the scene. It's a little hard to convey this when you take a 2D sprite, have it walk over to another one, make the *POP* sound effect and have the effected sprite change from standing to laying down. That's the true strength in 3D titles, they allow you to convey the story much better.

If you take the PSone and PS2 libraries as a whole, they're better than the SNES library by far, especially since Sony didn't have the same overbearing censorship issue that Nintendo had in those days.

[Sim Kid]

And how is a 3D game automatically better than a 2D game? Someone answer this question.

I really don't know...many 2D games actually play better than alot of 3D games today, since they didn't have such awkward camera controls to worry about. I don't exactly know what Lurch's point is, I'd like some clarification for that.

EDIT: Oh wait, never mind. Lurch clairified it in the above post.

And that means what? The Super NES is better than Sony systems will EVER be. Someone please tell me why this is a reason a game can be better. -CSM

That really sounds like an opinion to me. Just because the game was on a much more powerful system than the Super NES doesn't automatically make it better...The Playstation has truckloads of crap-games that border on "Broken", does that automatically make them better than a 16-bit treasure like Chrono Trigger or Tactics Ogre?

EDIT: In response to Lurch, just because it's in 3D and can present the story through cinematics doesn't automatically make it better...Phantasy Star 2, a game in 1989, has a much deeper and more original story, especially for its time-frame than some game like Final Fan-service X-2.

Sometimes, the stories in 16-bit games were actually executed better than they were in the 3D games...Compared to Chrono Cross, Chrono Trigger's story is much easier to keep track of. Kefka as a villain was also done very well, he destroyed the world because he was demented and evil, whereas nowadays the villains have some odd reason for wanting to destroy the world, usually containing a twist that they think they're going to save it by destroying it. (Like Schwartz in Tales of Legendia)

I'd also ask you to include Tactics Ogre and Tales of Phantasia on your list of "good SNES games", but they wouldn't count to Lurch since they weren't released in America until they got ports and remakes, and weren't received as well in America as they were in Japan. (Heck, Japan voted Tactics Ogre as number 7 on their "best games of all time") Plus, Tactics Ogre is incredibly hard to find.

[Rainbow Dash]

It's not hard to find on the internetwebs.

But most of the places you can find it are illegal (ish) so...

[Lurch1982]

Which particular point (Preferably in a quote box)? I think I've excessively clarified my points in this thread, but I'll further elaborate if you need it.

It's pretty much inaccurate and intellectually dishonest to say a system is really awesome and has better games that others if examples weren't released outside of one territory because the head company felt the west was unwashed and couldn't handle RPGs. That's why Japanese-only releases don't count. As far as Japanese polls on "Bests gaem evar," I could go on a huge rant as to why the opinions of a country that buys up games that consist of "touching" teenage girls to see if they're witches or have panties in vending machines don't count or that their gaming tastes are out of touch with the rest of the world's, buuut I won't get into it.

The Playstation also has games that exceed 16 bit treasures. Considering the amount of shovelware that the SNES and NES had, I don't see how its any different than any other system with the amount of trash on it.

FYI: The Ogre series is good (I have a copy of Ogre Battle 64 that I routinely threaten to smash with a sledgehammer just to piss off fanboys and a copy of Tactics Ogre for the GBA), but the reason they're impossible to find is because the only put out a small number of them into circulation.

[Crazyswordsman]

I think Lurch and I have become Bolt and Jay.

I'm not going to deny that cinematics can be awesome, but if you make it a focal point of your game, you're going to go into 20 minute cutscenes (like FFVII had) and therefore take away from the game. I don't want to watch a 20 minute cutscene except at the end of the game. I'd prefer a two or three minute cutscene, then lots of fighting, and then another short cutscene. Or, you should be allowed to fast forward through them if you don't want to see them. The long scene at the crater where Sephiroth makes his whole schpiel, and the scene where Cloud and Tifa are in the Lifestream, really are too long and put me to sleep. What they need to do with this type of thing is follow FFIX's example of the Battle of Alexandria, which had a short cutscene, then a series of fights, then another cutscene, and then some more fights. -CSM

[Lurch1982]

^Well, yeah, but they couldn't follow IX's example because IX wouldn't be released for a few more years. VII's the first time they got to do things like that, and I think that's why they went overboard with some of it (especially not giving you the option to speed up battles...Emerald Weapon was still a pain).

I think there are points where games can use 20 minute cutscreens effectively, but I don't really think FFVII is the best example since they were still trying to figure out how to balance visuals with narrative.

Still, first time they did it, not expecting it to be perfect. That's like saying FFI's plot is mediocre compared to the one in, say, IV. Sure it is, because FFI was one of the first RPGs out there in the JRPG style and they didn't get to the point where you needed more than "This dude wants to destroy the world...Wait, its really these four guys.....here's a dragon that changes your sprite....go fight the four guys again....here's Chaos!"

[Crazyswordsman]

FFI didn't have the best plot. It was very bland. But at least it brought us 8 Bit Theater. And it didn't need a plot. The game was challenging enough.

I knew after I pressed the "Post quick reply" button that FFIX wasn't the best example. Okay, I'll try again: Chrono Trigger. Not 3-D, although it did have cutscenes which weren't long and didn't take away from the game, even the Ocean Palace incident with Lavos wasn't drawn out, and it was *gasp* interactive! The whole scene where Cloud gives Sephiroth the Black Materia is long and drawn out, with no break for saving/fighting/bosses and that stuff.

Although this and the Lifestream weren't as bad as some of the scenes from FFVIII (the whole Rinoa in Space thing, for one) and FFX (When Tidus and Yuna make out, and when Rikku gives her speech about Yuna dying) (FFIX, thankfully, didn't have too many of these, although I did think Madain Sari was draggy)

I think sprites have their own course of beauty. And to be honest, have you paid attention to any of the backgrounds in the FFVI battles? Those things reminded me of Cezanne because of their detail. -CSM

[Perrin Aybara]

I don't have anything interesting to add to this discussion, so I won't.

It has been an interesting read, though.

I haven't played FF7 since it came out, so I barely remember the thing anymore. Overall I remember it being an enjoyable experience, though. Definitely not the best ever, though. I did remember being pissed off by the ending, though. Though though though.-jay

[Crazyswordsman]

^As always, Jay is right. The ending blew. And thanks to that PoS called "Advent Children," my crappy PoS timeline about how all the FFs could be connected to something was disjointed. -CSM

[The Willful Wanderer]

You all talk too much.

Well, at any rate, pointless and uncalled for argument aside...

Yes, FFVII is overhyped. But it's still a very good game- at least compared to the stuff that came out around the same time.

Also, there's a general consensus that someone with at least a little more character development than Vincent should have been used for any sequel games, but oh well. There's also a lot of 'there shouldn't have been a sequel game' or 'there shouldn't have been a movie', but since none of us has a time machine and a shotgun, oh well.

So, it's kind of a roundabout way of sayin' it, but all CSM's really tryin' ta say is:

HE!

HATES!

FANBOYISM!

And that's all he really means. Oh, and if you ever find yourself in a bad situation, where all the doubts and fears of your pitiful, meaningless existence threaten to crowd down around you, you can always remember that somewhere out there in this crazy old mixed up world, there's still a little place.

Called- *gets hit by a bus*

[Crazyswordsman]

THANK YOU. I have no problem with intelligent FFVII fans who realize that there are other great things in life. I have no problem with the game itself other than its overall disappointment when compared to FFVI. I only have a problem with the people who will chase you away from a forum for dissing their golden treasure.

I've met plenty of people who dislike FFVI, and I haven't chased them away from anywhere. -CSM

[Sim Kid]

I think sprites have their own course of beauty. And to be honest, have you paid attention to any of the backgrounds in the FFVI battles? Those things reminded me of Cezanne because of their detail. -CSM

Many gamers, especially those who were introduced to gaming in the 3D era when everything had to be realistic really fail to realize that a hand-drawn sprite in a Nippon Ichi game or the Cel-Shaded models in Okami or Tales of Symphonia have just as much character as an uber-realistic character model in Half-Life 2.

That's why Japanese-only releases don't count. As far as Japanese polls on "Bests gaem evar," I could go on a huge rant as to why the opinions of a country that buys up games that consist of "touching" teenage girls to see if they're witches or have panties in vending machines don't count or that their gaming tastes are out of touch with the rest of the world's, buuut I won't get into it.

One may actually argue the same about Americans and their taste in gaming....but that's really off-topic for this thread.


This thread really is more of why CSM hates fanboys and how they really can ruin a franchise...Kingdom Hearts and Halo really seem a lot less cool to me thanks to all the perverse Kingdom Hearts Fanboys...and of course, all the Croyts and Chocolate Milk Kids you meet on Xbox Live. :X

I think Lurch and I have become Bolt and Jay.

No, this is more of what Bolt and Jay were like...

Codiekitty: So I was playing Chrono Trigger and I thought of maybe getting Chrono cross...
Jay: Chrono Cross Sucks.
Bolt: That is because you did not fully pay attention to the storyline.
Jay: I did, but I was still confused, and most of the characters are just "BLAH!"
Bolt: But you have to play the game several time sto fully get the storyline, and the characters add more reason.
Jay: Most characters are absolutely WORTHLESS!
Bolt: No, they truly do. The number of characters you get puts the game ahead of its time.
Jay: But only about FOUR of them have any character development or plot significance. And besides, you only have a few limited number of techs...there's little need for most of them.
Bolt: Oh, but there is!
Jay: No, but there isn't!
Bolt: Oh, but there is!
Jay: DO YOU BITE YOUR THUMB AT ME?
Bolt: YES I BITE MY THUMB AT YOU!
*Jay and Bolt start sword-fighting*
Random member (Usually someone like Tonberry2k, Codiekitty, or Rattan): PART FOOLS! YOU KNOW NOT WHAT THY DO!



You and Lurch actually use examples to help clarify your points...moreso than Jay and Bolt did.

[Perrin Aybara]

Bah. Bolt was a loser.

And Chrono Cross does suck.-jay

[Metal Man]

I tried to pick up where the argument left off, but utterly failed... you guys talk more than I do sometimes!

But, yeah. It's the idiotic fanboys who ruined FFVII after it was made. For example, I liked Sephiroth, but not because he was 'emo' or 'uber', but rather because he had an interesting backstory.

However, liking Sephiroth is now a sin because everybody else goes "OMG HE HAS WHITE HAIR AND A LONG SWORD AND IS INVINCIBLE", and so I look dumb for saying I even remotely know of FFVII things.

Although I never liked Cloud. Sheesh. My answer to most of his problems would involve actually killing the dudes involved rather than getting involved in nutty terrorist activities. (I.E. I'd skip the terrorism for the spy-style attacking.)

As for KH, it was really, really overrated. It tries to suck you in with its 'epic' setting, but it utterly fails for me. Especially with Mickey Mouse. Come on. Mickey Mouse isn't some wizard of doom. He's a mouse who throws marbles at evil caterpillars!