Problems We Have

[Kargath]

Mildly, but I'm much more enthused about my novel right now. Markus and Jessica will finally live through words, after all these years.

[Wyborn]

Fair point, and well made.

Moving on, then...

[Metal Man]

1. Programmer: Yes. I've programmed in C and COBOL, I 'Program' in HTML and CSS, but more importantly, in Java and PHP now. This is why you see me often clashing with people in the SMBHQ section. A giant chunk of my life is devoted to programming things, and by 'help' with SMBHQ I mean cleaning up the code. This flies over everybody's heads and it just becomes blah blah blah blah blah.

3. Generally when people assume damage. I don't even mind auto-hits, but when they say how much damage it does, it takes my chance to write it in according to the character. Which in turn can kill the character way too fast, or in the case of my other, more powerful ones, are like scraped knees and paper cuts--utterly weak.

Annoying is usually some attack which flies around and around and around and never does anything much except clutters the person's writing space. I have to wade through it to get to the one which actually threatens my character, when they could have just attacked me instead of spinning around shouting japanese words for the first 15 minutes.

Additionally, annoying is when somebody has a mistaken identity or idea of my character, assumes something incorrect, then runs wildly off with it. Like when Death or whoever it was assumed Metal Man would be afraid of his character, or had hands of flesh. (In reality, Metal Man is half-insane and has metallic hands. His 'great effect' pose therefore existed only to be annoying, as it happened just as he said it--just that, of course, as Metal Man did not normally fear things like that, and had metallic hands, I had to spend a while writing around it.)

I believe the problem has been exposed. Some people fight to win, and believe losing to mean their writing lost. Which is clearly a failure of imagination; I have written visually stunning loses, bland, annoying victories, and middle-road stalemates, and so forth.

It is thus that I wish it would be made mostly a writing endeavor, for then my far more versatile IRC roleplaying personality could come out.

[The Willful Wanderer]

It's absurd to claim that fixing the ending fixes the middle - you can still try new attacks/events, but you just have to take into consideration their effects, that's all. No more shooting off cannons if your opponent will die from a poke in the ribs.

The problem with this is that you're assuming it's an issue of power. I'm talking in terms of weaknesses or tactics or just plain really wierd crap. I have characters who will survive, say, being dipped in lava, but not if they're pinned under it with a particularly large rock, though being pinned under a really big effin' boulder won't do them in on its own either. That's not a matter of power, that's a matter of asphyxiation that has everything to do with how it happened they came under the lava and nothing to do with whether or not the lava actually hurts them.

Again, I refer to Horror vs. Selene- if we'd decided beforehand that Selene would win, and then Wyborn had Horror use that very interesting attack with the thrown axe that I can't even really describe briefly, Selene would have still had to lose, because she had no protection against that particular attack. It had nothing to do with the power level involved, and everything to do with a very unusual attack. And that sort of thing *will* just mess up fights where the result is pre-determined, unless everyone agrees that just because you didn't think of something for your character to do to handle your attack, and can't think of anything they both would and could do to handle it, doesn't mean they can't survive it. Which is compromising the integrity of the character itself- being a character-driven writer, I find that at best extremely distasteful, at worst one of the few things that can genuinely piss me off.

I was wondering why we're even focused on writing battles at all if we're moving to a co-operative writing system. However, it doesn't seem like things are going that way, so the point is worthless.

This is a very good point, I wish I had thought of it.

How come? Why create a galaxy when a plain will do?

Because I'm one of those I suppose very odd (at least to you) people who likes to have interrelationships between the character and... you know. Anything. Everything comes from somewhere, where are they from? Why are they who they are? Because that can be important too if something happens to disrupt the roots of whatever ability. To me, creating a character with no concrete background and no existence beyond the fight is much like giving a character, say.... the ability to throw fire, but never saying why they can do it or how they pull it off. What happens when someone tries to disrupt the ability?

What if someone does something totally unexpected during the fight that might result in the character acting differently depending on how they encountered whatever action that is in the past, or people who performed that action, or similar actions?

If you're afraid of having a detail filled in wrongly by your opponent, you just aren't providing enough description or background for them. It also seems kinda silly to think that in a communal setting where about half of the writing is done by your opponent to expect them to not make your character do things that aren't an exact copy of a previous event or move.

Or maybe your opponent has a different view of certain things than you do. Wyborn's perception of things like Ki, Chi, magic, his Light, et cetera, is at variance with mine, and even though we've discussed them all numerous times with one another, I'm pretty sure we could both easily flub up dealing with those things between just us. I'm still not clear on the difference between his Light and certain perceptions of the idea of Ki, despite the fact that he's discussed the difference directly with me several times, at great length, and with great clarity at least as to the effects of them. As I still don't have a clear grip on it, I don't use his Light at all, and he and I are both fine with that, but some people won't hold back on things like that where it turns out that they don't have as clear an understanding of their opponent as they thought.

Misunderstandings of that sort are going to happen, you can't avoid it. You can do a pretty fair amount about how severe such disjuncts are, but you can't prevent them from happening at all. And if one of those misunderstandings results in 'bunnying', a single really major gaffe in handling someone else's character, or the difference between one character winning and the other one winning, then you're back at square one again.

Both of these are instances that can change who would win the fight.

Your second sentence here is complex enough that I'm not sure if you mean what it wound up meaning, or the opposite of what it wound up meaning.

2. There needs to be an understanding about which character is going to win beforehand - how this happens will occur during the course of the battle, to be written by either person. Doesn't matter who. Hell, figure out how they will win, it does not hurt my feelings, and it certainly doesn't keep you from coming up with the middle part on the fly.

Unless some part in the middle come up with on the fly would result in a win by the predesignated 'loser'. Which you still havent found a way to get around.

3. There needs to be an understanding that this is not an inherently competitive context. If it is, then it's in terms of writing abilities, not characters.

If this is so, then why are we writing out fights in particular? This place was designated as specifically for fights, which are by nature competitive and put a competitive context on what they are involved in. If it's just a 'writing abilities' fight you want, then shouldn't you be writing stories in the Writing forum or possibly some longer topic in the Roleplay forum (which is intended for portraying characters in a topic that is specifically longer and deeper than a fight in the first place)?

If this is not an inherently competitive context, then what is? This is an entire board here dedicated to people beating each other in the head until one of them- or both- can't get up. Which failer-to-get-up has lost the fight. You can claim it a multileveled competition with both a competition to win the fight AND a competition to 'win' the contest of writing skill, but if you're going to say that the writer should not be trying to write their character with the intent to win the fight at all, I ask then why bother writing a fight instead of a story, or a longer-term roleplay? Pulling out the competition removes the difference more or less entirely.

[Galefore]

You're all getting on my nerves. Fight however the hell you want, nobody's going to stop you and anyone who tries usually tends to fail. If you just want to argue and act like children, take it to PMs. Your points are all considered, and the individual can decide if predetermination will be an element in their fight.

[Wyborn]

All right Galefore, here's a question for you.

How exactly do you propose that the matter be settled if nobody talks about it? Would you rather the Gunjin just sit here and rot like it's been doing for the past two weeks, or is it preferable that we should try and figure out exactly what's wrong here?

I'll reply to Selene at some later point after Galefore answers.

[Lady Bane]

Oooo I like this post.
Where I get to tell all my problems... what can be better?

Well, let's see.

I've liked this guy for ... (365 X 3) + 51 days... Thats a lot.
And yeah.. I dont really got a chance... story over.

I'm suicidal. Thats a story too.

=)

And this guy named Auron is responsible for my best friend's death.

Now that was like 3 stories.
I've got problems for sure.

-Lady

[Wyborn]

I think you missed the point of the topic. Read the first post. Though, uh....that's all very bad and I hope you feel better.

[Galefore]

^^^What? Yeah, sure. Predetermined victory is the root of all of our problems.

Sell the house, kids!

We're ****ed!

^^Sorry, wrong topic. This is about problems related to the Gunjin, or actually more pointless bickering like in the NLBFT chat thread.

[Lady Bane]

I think you missed the point of the topic. Read the first post. Though, uh....that's all very bad and I hope you feel better.

Hehe... sorry. Didnt notice
*winces*

-Lady Bane

[Repster]

Since it would seem I forgot about this...

What do you like about posting in the Gunjin?
Can't really say. I just find it an enjoyable experience for the most part. I mean after nearing half past seven years I would not be around if I did not.

What do you get out of posting in battles?
Creative output, improvement in my writing abilities, venting of pent up rage. Raw charecter development. Then, we go back to my answer to the first question, which this could have easily been a part of.

What are the characteristics of your ideal Gunjin battle (as a participant)?
Entertainment
Acknowledgment.
Some form of respect for my actual charecter.
Lack of either, multiple times, will make me just give up on the fight entirely.

What are the characteristics of your ideal Gunjin battle (as 3rd party reader)?
The same really... Question 1-2 and 3-4 are quite practically the same thing.

[Erdawn Il Deus]

Sounds like you have a lot of serious problems.

[Dhampir]

Welcome back, Zoshi/ZoraLink/GaidenLink/man, I can't even ****ing remember the rest of my names up until this one.

Had to give myself that welcome out of hubris, because I was hoping to add something to this discussion based on my (egotistic clearing of the throat) experience. But even with that experience, I don't have half as much to say about this place as I've skimmed in this topic.

Started writing here when I was 12, loved it. I jumped in right after the HBF, for those of you that know the reference, and I was there for the HBF Last Stand. Learned quickly not to be cheap, courtesy of some fool, I think his name was Iron Man. Had great respect for Joker, because as I recall he was the only other writer willing to employ an anti-hero. Stopped writing here but periodically and inconsequentially when I was about 15.

Why did I quit? It wasn't really for lack of time, though anyone can tell you that your free time tends to take a nose dive going into high school. And not for schoolwork either.

Look, the way I see it, this forum synthesizes two traditional nerd rituals: role-play, and writing. Anyone who knows me or has memory of what I've written here can probably guess that I value writing a great deal more. Just know that I have prejudice against a battlefielder that neglects his writing, and I have little interest in reading a post that doesn't display talent at writing. Knowing this should give you the proper perspective to consider my opinions.

What about role-play? Well, I wonder if role-play is even what you people do here. Just from cursory observation and memory of my own time here, there was no role-playing. Role-playing means assuming a character's identity, acting in accordance with solid and unchanging character traits, giving those actions a sense of cause and purpose. In roleplaying, participants adopt and act out the role of characters that may have personalities, motivations, and backgrounds different from their own. I believe that the majority of actions undertaken in posts do not represent the carefully considered and entirely plausible reactions of characters, but simply what the battler wants to happen.

Of course, it would take an incredibly studious writer to translate an entire personality into the action within a post. Throwing a punch is an act unique to every person, and if you don't understand then you should go study boxers. But I wonder, what's the point of "role-playing" in this sense, if even I (and I have a very high opinion of my writing skills, btw) could not make my character's personality meaningful in the context of the post? What IS all this?

Let me tell you, if that's missing, then there's no logical sense of accomplishment to be drawn from even an individual post, let alone an entire topic. It's just another form of masturbating on the internet. Even the writing is worthless; beautiful, poetic descriptions are fine, but they are meant to be grafted onto a skeleton of plot and character (or, in the most ideal sense that only a few writers I've read have ever achieved, grow from the skeleton). Every paragraph becomes only a mere frame of a comic book, and don't think I'm ****ting on comic books--you must realize that a comic book has that same skeleton of plot and character, without which the individual frames are worthless.

This is why I left the battlefield, because I consider it essentially worthless. I developed a way with words but not with the greater elements of story. Now, I have an idea for turning that around, but it requires a fundamental shift in the structure and content of the battlefield. Just as a hint, a modified and refined version of story topics would have to become the norm, and they would have to be shorter, smaller and more numerous. But someone may have suggested this earlier; I haven't even read this topic. So, whoever's reading in this dead place, look it over and consider what's up. I might be back to talk about this more.

[Metal Man]

While I can see why ZL would say that (And it appears he has been around to see about the same things I have--at least, I remember him) the 'comic book frame of inadequency' is missing something--if one frequently roleplays , then the frame story becomes apparent for whatever character you use.

However, he brings up a good point, that the individual posts and pieces are being given such a great priority that the actual characters have become neglected at times. Additionally, this recurring 'problem' centers around the fact that many of the people here are more mature than it was back when, when a bunch of sloppily thrown together sentences and brutal insta-kill attacks were the norm.

The problem is these people around today are overcomplicating the obvious, and when one does that, it creates the 'useless comic panel' thing where the character is sucked right out of it. When one becomes so fixated on the perfect post, the ease and care with which one can establish a character is sucked out of the window.

No longer is it a casual writing experience, but it becomes this robotic competition which causes the creation of structures which are not very entertaining.

Rather than sit around and fight people verbally about it, as I cannot change their opinions nor can I persuade them, nor should I...

I simply wait for some people who aren't too busy saying they're dead and worn out to roleplay with. For I have seen several generations say that, and watched them clear the stage. I do not mind that. But that said, I am waiting for some people who are not so uptight about how their posts appear to people. -_-'

[Dhampir]

Well, listen, I had this idea I told to Wyborn. It's basically a new forum, completely separate from VGF.

1. This forum has a number of "closed" worlds, in addition to an "open" forum to represent the battlefield.
2. These world's are "closed" because their settings and conventions are determined by moderators.
3. The moderator, being the lord of a world of his own invention, is responsible for the continuation of an epic story topic. Other topics exist at his discretion, and take place in the world according to its conventions.
4. Writers petition the moderator to join his epic. The moderator and participants cooperate to forward the story. Though it is outlined by the moderator and his posts open and close each scene, the moderator sends the pertinent details of the scene to come to the participants, who then forward the scene from the perspective of their own character(s), interacting with other participants as well.

I also believe the inclusion of an RSS feed or mailing list would be extremely useful in the board's life.

[Galefore]

No, I don't think we need to split. If we do, it will not only cause a huge loss of members for VGF, but it also takes away the legacy this place has.

[Metal Man]

The problem isn't even the damage it'd do to VGF, but that it could not sustain itself.

Perhaps in 2004 the battling community was large and prosperous enough to support itself elsewhere, but with about 6 active people at most, a split would simply deliver a killing blow to the jaded remnants of what was once quite a glorious thing.

(Which, naturally, I missed out on, enacting instead several of my own little adventures in IRC)

But there is a good point. I remain here because it is VGF. Otherwise I have grown tired of all message board based roleplaying. Therefore, if it was moved off of VGF, one could not expect me to follow.

[Dhampir]

Galefore: No, I don't think we need to split. If we do, it will not only cause a huge loss of members for VGF, but it also takes away the legacy this place has.

The problem isn't even the damage it'd do to VGF, but that it could not sustain itself.

Perhaps in 2004 the battling community was large and prosperous enough to support itself elsewhere, but with about 6 active people at most, a split would simply deliver a killing blow to the jaded remnants of what was once quite a glorious thing.

(Which, naturally, I missed out on, enacting instead several of my own little adventures in IRC)

But there is a good point. I remain here because it is VGF. Otherwise I have grown tired of all message board based roleplaying. Therefore, if it was moved off of VGF, one could not expect me to follow.

Such a venture (hereafter referred to in capitals) could not support itself, if its only source of members were the disaffected from the Gunjin. But it doesn't have to be that way dude, just type "writing forums" in Google and see what **** pops up. This kind of ****, if you want it to grow, act like it's the indie underground. It's all about cooperation.

Also, the only reason to move off VGF is simply because the idea, while it really engenders true, inventive creative writing, requires more than the administration here--based on their personality from memory--would be willing to give. Multiple forums for a little experiment? Pssh.

And finally, the legacy of the Gunjin? Few people are here that remember any time when the Gunjin even felt like it deserved a legacy despite the major failures I described--yeah, they existed way back too. You think I was describing the present-day? **** man I haven't even been here, I just figure what's happening now is the result of those previous failures.

Anyway, this Venture sounds like a good idea to me, and I'm thinking about setting it up in the near future. I'll be in touch here with a link for whoever wants to join--and trust me on this one, the membership of the Venture will be 90% people who have never even heard of the Gunjin.

But if anyone knows a place like the Gunjin where I could get in touch with people who might be interested, I'd appreciate you pointing me in the right directions.

[Galefore]

I thought you were speaking of having us totally abandon this place in favor of moving away from VGF and beginning anew. However, I am totally fine with you forming your own experiment, as I have no control of separate places. I do wish you luck.

[The Willful Wanderer]

Oi.

You never did reply here, Wy.