NLBFT 11 Chat Thread

[Wyborn]

Creating a God-character is wrong, period, in any situation that resembles a competition. Outside of that? I will not continue the argument, as it has taken up too much space as is, but I will answer your question.

"If a character technically has infinite power in reserves, but never touches hardly any of it, how is that still cheap?"

I'm going to assume that's not some kind of grammatical trick and you actually mean "but hardly ever touches any of it" or "never touches a significant amount". But that doesn't quite address the situation, either, because it doesn't properly describe the character; infinite power in reserve simply implies that she has an inexhaustible source of energy, which is true of several characters who have run rampant here before. The problem here is that she has infinite ability to wield that infinite power. How is that still cheap?

Well, I think you phrased it pretty well with "Had I had a couple more posts, Lucille would either have beaten Richter, restored the story and had the Book heal her, or simply just died of blood loss from the 'Deschaine Abortion'." The only two options here, presented by you, are Lucille killing Richter and restoring everything to the way it was with no particular amount of effort, or dying from blood loss because technically she's not allowed to heal herself of internal injuries.

The problem here is that Lucille doens't have limitations, even narrative ones - she's set up as the innkeeper of all creation, essentially, carrying around a book that, surprise surprise, happens to contain every story ever told, up to and including Richter's, and the lack of proper maintenance for which would quite naturally end all creation. So not only is killing her impossible and surviving against her onslaught a matter of throwing aside the established universe you present, but in the supremely unlikely event that she does die, well, sucks to be you.

It's a character who is all-powerful, can change the fabric of creation by talking at it, apparently greatly dwarfs a guy who's been seen collapsing a universe into a screaming fireball of determinate size, who can retroactively change anything about her opponent or herself that she wants, but oh - this is a no-healing tourney, so apparently at some point she will bleed to death.

It's not a matter of "how is that cheap", it's a matter of "how could that NOT be cheap?"

But, like I said, it's all pointless now, and for the judges.

[Kargath]

If a tree dies in the forest, and is alive the moment someone looks, was it ever really dead?

[The Willful Wanderer]

e_e;

Don't dodge the question, Kargath.

[Scripture]

My my my, this has become quite the interesting little roundabout arguement. I dig what Andy did in the end, though. Quite the fitting end. I also really like the fact it wasn't just violence.

I'm not sure if you have a concrete story behind Richter, Andy, but you should write about it. If you haven't already.

[The Willful Wanderer]

Little late there. Or early...

Given Andy and his characters, I'm willing to bet that Richter's story has already been written, and it's in battles and suchlike.

[Scripture]

^That is true, it's there for those who want to look and piece it all together. But it'd always be cool to just see Andy write it all out. But maybe Richter's really not intended for that, and more intended for skullbusting with otherwordly overtones.

[Joker]

Wow, I haven't seen a chat thread like this so alive in the Gunjin since........well...for a long time

[Erdawn Il Deus]

OoC: Violence seemed pointless by the end of it.

[Kargath]

Creating a God-character is wrong, period, in any situation that resembles a competition. Outside of that? I will not continue the argument, as it has taken up too much space as is, but I will answer your question.

"If a character technically has infinite power in reserves, but never touches hardly any of it, how is that still cheap?"

I'm going to assume that's not some kind of grammatical trick and you actually mean "but hardly ever touches any of it" or "never touches a significant amount". But that doesn't quite address the situation, either, because it doesn't properly describe the character; infinite power in reserve simply implies that she has an inexhaustible source of energy, which is true of several characters who have run rampant here before. The problem here is that she has infinite ability to wield that infinite power. How is that still cheap?

Go back and read the previous page of the chat thread, and look at the changes Lucille has made. A rock appearing. Disconnecting the gun belts. A simple generalised speed increase and a pretty-looking liquid rerouting. Altogether, those are tiny things. As I have said previously, and which you refuse to read or comprehend, larger or more complex changes take time.

Well, I think you phrased it pretty well with "Had I had a couple more posts, Lucille would either have beaten Richter, restored the story and had the Book heal her, or simply just died of blood loss from the 'Deschaine Abortion'." The only two options here, presented by you, are Lucille killing Richter and restoring everything to the way it was with no particular amount of effort, or dying from blood loss because technically she's not allowed to heal herself of internal injuries.

I forgot one word there: "probably". I of course have no idea what Erdawn will write in his posts, what tricks he has up his sleeve, so that was a tangetial statement of the two most probable outcomes at the time.
Yet again I must state it does take effort for Lucille to make changes, and it takes time. Take your head out of your arse for a minute and think. If Lucille could just appear and fix everything with a single word, then why the hell is she persisting sticking around possibly the single most dangerous character in that world-story?

The problem here is that Lucille doens't have limitations, even narrative ones - she's set up as the innkeeper of all creation, essentially, carrying around a book that, surprise surprise, happens to contain every story ever told, up to and including Richter's, and the lack of proper maintenance for which would quite naturally end all creation. So not only is killing her impossible and surviving against her onslaught a matter of throwing aside the established universe you present, but in the supremely unlikely event that she does die, well, sucks to be you.

Are you even thinking about character knowledge here? What would you say if your opponent says "Don't kill me or your universe will fracture and cease to exist"? There's a damn good chance the character will think Lucille's talking out of her arse and keep fighting. Hell, even if they do take Lucille seriously, would they even care? What if Lucille was fighting Terror? He'd just go "THANKS FOR SAVING ME THE TRIP!" and begin slaughterfication. ]
As for the question of "surviving" against Lucille:

If a tree dies in the forest, and is alive the moment someone looks, was it ever really dead?

----

It's a character who is all-powerful, can change the fabric of creation by talking at it, apparently greatly dwarfs a guy who's been seen collapsing a universe into a screaming fireball of determinate size, who can retroactively change anything about her opponent or herself that she wants, but oh - this is a no-healing tourney, so apparently at some point she will bleed to death.

It's not a matter of "how is that cheap", it's a matter of "how could that NOT be cheap?"

But, like I said, it's all pointless now, and for the judges.

For ****'s sake, think. If your opponent can change the universe through Words, break their jaw and rip their tongue out. That's a flagrantly obvious counter, and I'm actually quite surprised Erdawn didn't take that route.
The reason for not healing her lower wound, or truly healing herself is that organic structures are ****ing complex. Do you really think that Richter would just stand around whilst Lucy chants herself back to health?

I'm sick of you - your refusal to read what I say, your refusal to countenance some other literary device other than vanilla magic to accomplish changes in the environment and characters, your refusal to think.
To me it just seems like you're outraged that I put up a fight - and I refuse to throw a fight just to satisfy your whims, Wyborn.

I'm not sure if you have a concrete story behind Richter, Andy, but you should write about it. If you haven't already.

I second that motion

Wow, I haven't seen a chat thread like this so alive in the Gunjin since........well...for a long time

We're near page 25 and we haven't even got to the final round yet O_O
This'll either have to split or become a supertopic.
(I was a mod and I never found out the reason for that rule even then...)

OoC: Violence seemed pointless by the end of it.

- and your post was all the better for it. (Have to find out some way of avoiding inspiring you in future tourneys. D: )
A couple of questions though - is Richter a mind-reader? I'm not sure how much you were seperating 'controller' and 'character' knowledge.
Also, how'd the book set on fire? Impenetrable defensive shield, mentioned in my intro post, remember?
My meta was supposed to be bigger than your meta *shakefist* :P

[Videospirit]

The easiest way to deal with an impenetrable field is to ignore it.

[Erdawn Il Deus]

It's simple. Richter is a being outside existance. He is not a part of your book, and never will be. The book, essentially, meant nothing to him. And Lucille's intent was pretty obvious from the get-go.

[Wyborn]

Sorry, Kargath - like I said, I'm not arguing. You didn't properly counter my point regardless. If you want to show me my shortcomings, put your money where your mouth is and answer my challenge. If you want to judge my stylings, do it that way. Argument over.

And let's get some judgments up ins!

[Kargath]

I wouldn't have continued anyway, but it seemed Selene wanted to hear my response.

I'm not quite as enthused about battling you now. Maybe later when you've smartened up.

I second that judging motion!

[Videospirit]

why are you guys arguing so much anyway? This is the Gunjin, you should use actions not words.(even if those actions are described by words)

[Kargath]

^Wyborn just seemed to take offense to me saying I'd win or I'd lose.

[Wyborn]

I'm not quite as enthused about battling you now. Maybe later when you've smartened up.

Elaborate on what you mean.

And you're missing the point: it's not that you would win or lose (nothing could be more reflexively true), it's the fact that you were using a God character way more powerful than your opponent, which goes against one of the most basic tenants of the battlefield. Hell, it's in the rules pretty explicitly.

[The Willful Wanderer]

Damn straight I wanted an answer.

Practically the first argument I've seen in well over a decade- the first genuine, adversarial argument- that didn't immediately descend into idiotic namecalling and kneejerk shouting or 'shouting'. ****in' A, I'm gonna encourage it.

It's RATIONAL DISCOURSE. A lot of people could learn a lot about how to actually argue from this one. A lot of people who could really stand to learn that.

Though, you could stand to have a little more respect for the person you're arguing against, Kargath.

Sidenote: Kargath, you never specified whether you'd want to go uber-physical or uber-metaphysical in the final round. Andy, I have to ask that you answer the same question, please? I'm gonna be happy to go either way, but I don't want to shoot in both directions if it's avoidable.

[Wyborn]

The thing is that you didn't really get an answer - you got a very irate personal attack that arose from being called out. He never gave any justification for the existence of a God character, much less using one in a tournament; too much of his post devolved into passive aggressive (and then openly aggressive) derisions of my character and the way I battle/write. Not satisfactory, and a big part of why I refuse to argue anymore - because I saw it coming.

Still waiting on a reply to that challenge, though, and on an answer concerning why I need to "smarten up" - in whatever way that refers to.

[Erdawn Il Deus]

Selene, I'm working off your post in the case I win. And I seriously wouldn't consider Lucille more powerful than Richter ha-haaaaaaaaaaaaaa...

[Kargath]

Now, this is a "whole number"...

Elaborate on what you mean.

And you're missing the point: it's not that you would win or lose (nothing could be more reflexively true), it's the fact that you were using a God character way more powerful than your opponent, which goes against one of the most basic tenants of the battlefield. Hell, it's in the rules pretty explicitly.

Practically the first argument I've seen in well over a decade- the first genuine, adversarial argument- that didn't immediately descend into idiotic namecalling and kneejerk shouting or 'shouting'. ****in' A, I'm gonna encourage it.

It's RATIONAL DISCOURSE. A lot of people could learn a lot about how to actually argue from this one. A lot of people who could really stand to learn that.

Though, you could stand to have a little more respect for the person you're arguing against, Kargath.

The thing is that you didn't really get an answer - you got a very irate personal attack that arose from being called out. He never gave any justification for the existence of a God character, much less using one in a tournament; too much of his post devolved into passive aggressive (and then openly aggressive) derisions of my character and the way I battle/write. Not satisfactory, and a big part of why I refuse to argue anymore - because I saw it coming.

Still waiting on a reply to that challenge, though, and on an answer concerning why I need to "smarten up" - in whatever way that refers to.

OK, let's make it nice and simple for you.
It is true that given enough time, Lucille would be able to reshape an entire universe to her whims.
However, this will never happen.
Factor one: it is not her will. She would never reshape a universe for her own amusement, all she does is minor corrections to return to a pre-ordained plot path.
Factor two (battle specific): Your opponent starts chanting in unidentafiable words that go beyond your eardrums and into your mind. Things around you start disappearing and shifting. Do you wait for her to finish and see what happens? I wouldn't, and I think it's fair to say Richter wouldn't either. It takes a simple Word or two to make a book, or a rock. The process increases in complexity and time for more complex issues, such as organic structures. Now, can you imagine how long it would take to fix a googol of air molecules and their direction vectors, erase living things and restore them with their mind waveforms intact, all at the same time?

This is all just repeating what I've said before. I repeat myself so that the probability increases with each post you'll read what I say, but I'm really not sure of the steepness of that curve.
:smashhead:
So when I say "smarten up", I mean that if you can't take in what I write in a simple chat thread, I'm really not sure it would go any better for us in a full complex battle.

Selene, my respect for people drops sharply when they simply refuse to look at the information I give them repeatedly.

If I am to truly debate this with Wyborn though, I need more information on his mind. So here are some questions. I do not necessarily expect answers, given that he has stated his wish to not continue this conversation, but I will post them just in case.

• Why is magic OK, but innate reality-modifying powers of the same degree not?
• What are the characteristics of your ideal Gunjin character?
• What are the characteristics of your ideal Gunjin battle?
• How is a character who is time limited in output of her powers a "God" character?

Sidenote: Kargath, you never specified whether you'd want to go uber-physical or uber-metaphysical in the final round. Andy, I have to ask that you answer the same question, please? I'm gonna be happy to go either way, but I don't want to shoot in both directions if it's avoidable.

Well, my idea really needs the element of surprise to work, so I can't describe it in detail, but -
I'll need: A non-green area of terrain, with useable normal atmosphere.
You'll need: Physical stamina, and lots of it. Stamina does not necessarily mean resistance to injury. Attack magic would be a plus too.

Selene, I'm working off your post in the case I win. And I seriously wouldn't consider Lucille more powerful than Richter ha-haaaaaaaaaaaaaa...

Which is more powerful - a sprinter or a marathon runner?